The Art of Persuasion - Exploring the Genius of a Top-Notch Copywriter: Mara Glazer - Direct Response Copy Gir

SPEAKER_01 0:04

This is the Beyond the Story Podcast, a show that goes way beyond the story. And now, Sebastian Frost. Mero, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Finally, goodness gracious.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

I feel like we've been connected for a minute now. Um a good five or six years at least. So great to finally get you on the show and connect with you. I I I jumped on one of your posts or something and was like, let's get you on the show, which I normally do to connect with people, and here we are. So I'm glad you could find some time in your busy schedule to hang out with me for a few minutes here. I I love telling people's stories. I like going back to the beginning of the story because a lot of times the story is consumed in what we currently do right now. But I always like to go, so what happened like in the beginning? Like, how did it all start? So let's just for speaking of starting, let's let's start there. Let's for context, let's pack up a little bit. Sometimes people start after high school, sometimes after college. I mean, wherever your starting point was, where did it all begin to really bring you to present day with what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Yeah, I was actually living in New York City, working in the fashion industry. I was deciding designing small leather goods and cold weather accessories for brands like Michael Coors, Calvin Klein, Lacosse, about 15 different brands. Um, and I was miserable in my job. I was making less than 35k a year working in the fashion industry. My boss was, if you've ever seen The Devil Wears Prada, that was kind of like my life. And um, I ended up having an incident where I actually tore my spine. So I'm living in New York, I tear my spine, I can't walk, I can't work, I can't drive. And it was in that moment I knew that I couldn't have a nine to five job anymore and I couldn't work for somebody else anymore because I needed the freedom to take care of myself when I needed to. So I caught up my father, uh, his name is Bill Glazer, and I asked him if I could move back to Baltimore and join the family business called Glazer Kennedy Insider Circle, which he started with Dan Kennedy. And um, I thought that maybe that would be my next step to entrepreneurship is to go work for him. And if I have another problem, you know, maybe he'd give me the day off to go to the doctor or something like that. And so the first time I asked him, he said no. So I asked him again and he said no again. And then I remembered a saying that he used to say around the dinner table growing up, which was glazers never give up. So I asked him a third time. And he said, if you really want this and you really want to move back to Baltimore and join the family business, you need to earn it. So I spent six months working for him for free. I was writing marketing campaigns, um, doing research, whatever he asked me to do, I would do because that's how bad I wanted it. And actually, I should say I was attempting to write marketing campaigns, which I guess we'll get to in a moment. And so then finally he uh he called me up six months later and he said, Okay, if you really want this, Mara, you can move back to Baltimore, but you need to understand two things. So, one is you will be working harder than you've ever worked in your whole entire life. My dad worked me like a dog. Uh, unfortunately, my dad can't work anymore. And I feel like he still works me like a dog. The first question he asked me when I call him is, How much money did you make me today? So my dad worked me like a dog. And then he said, Mara, you'll be heading up the social and alternative media marketing department. And I didn't even really know what that was at the time. All I used social media for was to invite my friends to my parties and post my drunk party pictures the next day at that time in my life. And so I said, okay. And I moved back to Baltimore. I inhaled everything I could get my hands on about making money with social media. I figured out how to track my sales, which nobody had figured out how to do at that time. That was in 2009. And I was able to track a million dollars back to sales from social media, um, from social media alone in less than 278 days. And then he told me that I earned the right to learn how to write direct response sales copy, which I didn't think was really cool at the time, but now I do because it's totally changed my life. And so my dad then went on to sell the business to a venture capital firm and I became an employee again. And I remembered why I didn't want that. And so I left and I went out on my own and I started consulting, um, kind of behind the scenes and writing copy, uh, you know, just here and there. And then it turned into a thing. And now I have a copywriting agency, a team of writers, and we write direct response sales copy just like my dad trained me to do hands-on for three years.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

I love it. And so, what's the most exciting part about doing that? Is it is it the fact that you it's kind of a family legacy that you're that you know, the an extension of the family legacy that you're able to carry on, but you've also really been able to carve out your category in that in that space?

SPEAKER_00 5:10

There's two things I love about it. So my uh my father unfortunately is ill. And when he got ill, I made a promise to him that I would continue to share his teachings with other business owners to pass along his legacy and his teachings. And so one, I get to do that, which is really cool. The other cool part for me is like the high I get when a campaign hits and does really well. And like figuring out all like the little conversion points and like how to tweak them and adjust them to get them to convert even higher. It's like I've never done drugs in my life, but I imagine that's what it feels like. Like I get so excited about it. So those are the two things that I really love the most about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

And how's your dad doing? I've I've I remember seeing your post and and updates and on his health and how things are going.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Yeah, thanks for asking. Um, unfortunately, it's not not doing too well. He had another stroke in 2021, a hemorrhagic stroke, and um, he's having a hard time. So um, but I I appreciate you asking. Everyone asks that it's a lot for us.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Be sure to keep him in my prayers, absolutely. And uh thanks, thanks for sharing that as well. Wishing him nothing but the best, of course. So great to see how you've been able to step into that and you know, you guys had that agreement with each other, kind of like that. My daughter graduates from college on Friday. So I understand that father-daughter bond and to be able to have that conversation uh of hey, listen, I I got it for I'll I'll take it from here, Pops. You know, it's like one of those conversations, which is great. I mean, you talk about the ultimate fulfillment, and then you know, it adds just that much more excitement every time the campaign hits, and it's something that you've done and know that you've implemented based on what you know what you've learned from having the opportunity to work with them. So, how does this whole copywriting thing work? Uh, I want to I want to talk about a couple different things about copywriting. First of all, we'll we'll address the elephant in the room, which is uh AI is going to take everybody's job, which I don't believe is going to happen. We'll talk about that in a minute. But if if a if a business is listening to this, an entrepreneur, solar solopreneur, a marketer is listening to this, and you're like, I really need to figure out my copy game because I haven't been doing that, or my ads suck, or I don't convert anything on here. Why does someone need a copywriter?

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Yeah. So the thing to understand is copy is literally every single word that you use to promote, share, and deliver your offers. Literally every single word. So your copy has one of the most, if not the most, important job and biggest responsibility in your company to bear. Because if nobody's understanding what you're offering and why they need it and why they need it right now, you're not going to sell anything. And if you're not selling anything, you're not making money. And if you're not making money as a business owner, you're pretty much toast. So that's why it's important. And it's not just important in the written context. Uh, I feel that when you get really good at writing about your offers, you also get really good at talking about your offers and selling them on sales conversations or through webinar or on the stage. And it all really goes together. So that's why it's so important. Um, and I've literally seen great copy be able to transform a business overnight when you get the message right and you get when you get the words right, and when you can make a very strong case for what it is that you're offering, why someone needs it and why they need it right now, you can go from having an offer that's flopping to having an offer that's winning. And I've seen it happen literally overnight multiple times. I rewrote one of my friends' headlines and increased the conversions by 13%. Um, and that happened literally overnight. And that's why it's so important.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

So if you've got great copy, but the people that are responding to the copy don't really align with your business. They can't afford your services, they're not really a fit for what you because it's my understanding, and I failed miserably twice at this of doing the whole fact our our our mutual friend Dan Henry, uh, not to be a big name dropper here, but what up, Dan?

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Um what up, Dan?

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Yeah, he said, you know, he he well, I the first campaign I tried was in 2020. Phenomenal copy, absolutely loved it. I thought it was fantastic, really edgy, really pushy envelope, ran ads to the landing page on there, and it was broke person after broke person after broke person. So I I gave up and I'm like, it doesn't work. Then I was having dinner with Dan and he said, uh, you're crazy to not have a VSL and run ads to it to an application for people that want to start a podcast. Like, this is the way it should be set up. And I'm like, yeah, kind of second thought. And then I gave it and I gave it a second shot late last year. Uh same thing. Great copy, everything was good. Every single person I talked to thought it was the greatest idea ever and the greatest program ever, but there was never a budget. And I don't really know how to articulate this question. And it's not, I'm just using my experience as an example because I'm sure you know people have failed ad campaigns all the time. Now, are they mutually exclusive, like really good copy and really good ad campaign? Like, how does that all work? I mean, it's still a mystery to me and stuff that keeps me up at night, but um I just thought of this while we were talking about it. So I thought, why don't I add this into the into the things we're chatting about here?

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Cool. Let's talk about it. So there's lots of different aspects to a campaign that make it successful. So you could have really great copy and your traffic could suck, or you could have really great copy and the design of your copy sucks. So everyone thinks it's boring and then they don't want to read it. I think that's actually like a big myth. A lot of copy read a lot of copywriters think that the success of a campaign is all about the words. And I call BS on that. I think that what the words say and how the words look are just as important because if they look boring, people are gonna think they're boring and not gonna read them. And there's a lot of factors that go into the success of a campaign. And also the market has a big piece of that and a big thing to do with that. So with your offer, for example, it could have been where you're getting your traffic from. I'm not really sure. Just kind of speculating right now. Okay, so it could be your leads from Facebook. It could be that if you found traffic in other places, that the the quality of the lead could be better. It could be that maybe you didn't make a strong enough case for the for why somebody should buy your offer and why they should buy it right now. It could be that, and I haven't seen the offer, but it could be that the offer wasn't, as my dad always said, sexy enough. My dad always said you have to create an offer that is so damn sexy your prospects can't say no. And so it could be that, and there's all of these elements and there's all of these components, and they have to align. And sometimes it's timing too. And um, so that that could be the case. Because I imagine, like you just told me that you were a guest on a podcast and you got a lot of great clients from that podcast, and that was a different type of traffic media that really worked and really aligned for you. So maybe Facebook ads isn't the right place to find those people.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

What's your favorite platform for traffic?

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Oh man. So something that a lot of people don't know about me is that I'm really introverted and I like to hide behind the computer. And I've been very lucky and very fortunate that I've built a great business off of referrals. Um, I just started playing on TikTok and I just started playing on posting on Instagram. And um, it is so uncomfortable for me. I really am very introverted and I like to hide and I like to be the person on the back end who's like working out all of the conversions and things like that. So, so to be very honest, my favorite source of traffic are influencers and content creators who like to partner together and allow for us to create their marketing campaigns.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

I love that. I can do the same thing with podcasts. Like, listen, you spread the word about me, I'll launch your podcast. Hey, ideas all over the place. I was doing that for a lot. I mean, that's like my that that's the number one thing I do to prospect is is this is this whole because you get to know somebody, you tell their story, you build rapport, and if they don't have a podcast, by the end of the conversation, I'm always asking. So when you start a podcast, so that works extremely well. Much like you, referrals um have been the driving force of the business. That's why I was kind of like with cold traffic, because people don't know you from cold traffic. That's the biggest challenge that I saw. It's like they can see you and they can feel like they know you. It's like that celebrity, you know, perspective. But you know, a referral is either somebody who knows me or somebody who knows me that know I and I somebody they know knows me. Um so that's interesting. It's an interesting perspective on influence. I've heard a lot of great things about influencer marketing, as much as I'm a comic as well. So as much as I make fun of influencers, um, by the way, if you're listening to this wondering what an influencer is, it's someone who's paid to spread lies on the internet. Um I do want to say something though.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

I noticed that our campaigns that are the most successful are for people who consider themselves content creators and influencers and have large followings, specifically on TikTok and on YouTube. And so um, I think that there's something to be said for content marketing these days that a lot of people people overlook. Content marketing isn't just about attracting in a lead, it's also about building rapport and building that engagement before that lead actually comes into your funnel through your free content, which is kind of what you're doing here in your own way too. And um, so so when I like when we're partnering, because sometimes I partner with clients and sometimes we um just get paid for a project, we do the project and then we part ways as friends. And when I'm looking for a partner, I specifically look for that for somebody who has a large uh YouTube and or TikTok following because that's what we've seen.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Yeah, that's a great strategy. I mean, it really is. I mean, it's it's it is a prime example of you know scratching each other's back, if you will, on on, you know, if I do this for you, we'll do this for me. Uh on on it on uh trading of services, if you will. There we go. Accomplishing, you know, getting marketing done, but also achieving both objectives there. So I'm gonna write that down, taking notes here on my own podcast on here. So uh the world of AI. Obviously, AI just came about, you know, overnight. It feels like uh it's been around a lot longer than that, but it feels like it's been you know overnight. And I constantly ask this question, specifically to my marketer friends and people that I have on the show. And you know, that you know, what does this all mean for the world of copywriting and and marketing? And the consistent response that I get is it's just a tool, just like the rest of them out there. Now, do you need 50 copywriters anymore? Probably not. Can that go down to five? Maybe. But that's not everyone on the planet losing their job. It's increasing the quality of the copywriter in conjunction with utilizing the AI tool. So I'm very curious to know what your entire thought process is on this world, because you're in the copywriting world and AI could potentially be a threat or a benefit. But curious to know what your thoughts are.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

So AI is not going away. So we need to figure out how to embrace it in our lives, especially as copywriters and as marketers. The way that I feel that it's most beneficial now is as an idea generation tool and also as a place to start um and create copy that then can be tweaked um by an by an expert or by someone with some skill in that area. When I've played around with it, like I've told my friends, what kind of words am I allowed to use on this show?

SPEAKER_01 16:49

You can say whatever you want. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Okay. So I told my friends that it spits out basic bitch copy. It's like really boring, really not like copy, and it's lacking personality. And um, and that's what I've found. I understand it can be trained. I understand it can be trained for tonality. Here's what else it's missing: it's missing strategy, it's missing what my father taught me, which is something called copy choreography, which is the sequencing of a campaign based by based on buyer psychology. It's missing that as far as as far as my experience with it. Um, and so I don't necessarily think that it's going to wipe out the industry. I think that if you're a copywriter, you need to figure out how to become smarter than that, which is by mixing strategy with copy. There's a lot of copywriters right now that got into this industry during COVID because they wanted to leave their job or maybe they lost their job and they saw this as a really great opportunity to start a freelance business and make some money working from home or working from wherever, which is really, really great. But now that you've got that skill, you need to add strategy, marketing strategy, copy choreography to your repertoire so that you can out be AI, which is my thoughts about it. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

And didn't would that thought didn't even enter my head. So I'm glad I asked that question because uh copy choreography. I'm like, I'm the would have never put those two words together, but absolutely brilliant. It makes perfect sense, you know, as you as you as you break it down. Yeah, I've interviewed a lot of people in the AI space, specifically copywriters. I don't know if you're familiar with um, I had um uh brand content to scale. You're familiar with Julian McCoy and Justin, I think I forgot what their name is. Anyway, long story short, they created a solution. They've always been long-form uh SEO-friendly copy people. Like they created so that what they did was take uh AI and then integrate in what they've already done, and their solution delivers a 2600-word SEO-friendly um linked blog post in minutes based on their software specifically. And these guys are like real copywriters like yourself. So, you know, it's not just hey, let's pass it off to AI on here. And I was like, wait a second, did you just tell me like hold on a second? He goes, Yeah. In fact, I'm gonna you can try it out and go create a post with this podcast episode. And I was like, What? So um I again tools being added onto existing expertise to improve that expertise and product offering, is what I'm seeing happen uh on here. Same thing in the podcasting world. I just invested in a software. There was a l and that was another thing I learned. 1,100 AI platforms launched just last month, I believe. That's mind-boggling. Mind boggling to me.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

I did not know that. I thought it was maybe two or three.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Yeah, no, it was a lot of them. So, so, and I I invested in a in a so in a podcast related one. And not because it's because I want to have a touch point of every podcaster out there, you know, not just the people that we launched their podcast, but you know, being able to generate show notes, which like the description of a podcast episode, that is far from that's like the biggest headache we have at the agency is uh the what the show notes, what AI spits out for the show notes. Um clients constantly going, My name is Jennifer, not Janet. So they they need to figure out the AI needs the robots need to figure out their whole naming situation on there. Now it's not going to replace podcast production companies, but for the for the small people out there that you know, the do-it-yourselfers, the just getting started on here, it's a great way to get in there and generate your show notes and clean up audio. So again, another tool on here. But it'll be exciting to see how it all unpacks. But I think as with any shiny new object, you know, everyone's trying to, you know, they're trying to first attempt to cash in, if you will, on this AI gold rush, if that is even a thing. But as that starts to settle out, it's like, okay, it separates the real players from the people just trying to, you know, create a business out of it. Yeah. Um, so it'll be exciting to see how it all unfolds. I don't I definitely don't view it as a threat at all.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Yeah, I'm not too worried about it either, to be honest with you. So I've also kind of just have built trust in myself over the years that I'll always figure it out. So whatever happens, we'll always figure it out. So whatever happens with AI, as long as they don't like remember that movie, the Will Smith movie, where like the robots literally took over the whole entire world? We probably should have learned from that movie and not made AI to begin with. But unless that happens, I think we're all gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Well, I mean, key words here, unless that happened. I didn't even think about that now. It's like fuck, we could be taken over by robots. I mean thought about forget about a recession. How about robots knocking on your door? Okay, blah, blah, blah, blah. Clear, cancel, delete. Yeah, clear, yeah, uh, whatever I kind of, where's the stage at? Yeah. Um, so exciting time to be alive. I wouldn't trade it for anything. I mean, we've really been blessed to be able to be in a space where, you know, news and information comes to our fingertips, and now we can build a business in minutes, you know, the same time. And we've never had this. I was I got an Uber a couple weeks ago here in Miami, and a guy was in a brand new Lexus SUV, and I was like, Oh, this thing's beautiful. He's like, Yeah, I just got it three days ago. I was like, nice, Uber's taking care of you. He goes, No, I own a Car rental company. I'm like, oh, that makes sense. He's like, yeah, I do it with Turo. I own six cars. I make six thousand a month. And then I drive Uber Black and um and and Lux, like the Lyft Lux, um, in in between all that to supplement it, which brings in another couple grand. This guy's making eight grand a month renting his cars out and drive people. I mean, it's just a wild, wild time to be alive. It's never been that way before.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Yeah, you can do anything, you can be anything, and you can make money doing it. And I think that that's really cool because those opportunities didn't exist for me. Like I think about that a lot. Like kids who are in college right now have so many opportunities to set themselves up for success, make sure that they don't have to worry about their schooling debt, have a legit company before they even graduate, where those opportunities didn't really exist or weren't as easily available for me when I was going through that. So I really do think that it is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

I need to see. There is, in fact, the software company that that I bought into is I was approached by a couple of college kids that were in an engineering school at uh at BYU out in Salt Lake City. And they're like, can you just take a look at the platform and give us some feedback? And I'm like, I'm all over this. I'll help you guys bring this thing to market. Let's rock and roll with it. College kids are like, Yeah, we graduate the same days your daughter does, but we're actually we're not gonna go get a job. We're just gonna take this thing to the market. And I was like, let's go. My daughter is psych major and wants to help people and do that whole traditional route. And I'm kind of grateful for that. I don't know how I would adjust to her going, hey dad, I know college is done, but I got this great idea and I'm gonna go run with it. I'd probably be all over it and uh and and partner with her on it. Um, but she's the maybe later on, dad. I grew up with you as an entrepreneur. I'm good. I'm also I've seen all that I need to see, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

She's seen all sides of it.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Yeah, she certainly has. And then she goes out and gets a couple babysitting gigs and she's like, wait a second, maybe I can do this whole, you know, entrepreneur thing. And then a month goes by, there's no babysitting gigs. She's like, I think I'll stick with my degree. Yeah, it's uh it's it's an interesting space, interesting space for for these kids these days, I tell you.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

The cool thing is that she can always change her mind and do whatever she wants down the road. I feel like I've had so many like um shifts in my career and my business, and have always tried to figure out new things that I like to do. Like I've invested in land, I've done e-commerce, like I've tried all of these things, trying to figure out other things that I really love to do. And and the fact that we can do that now is really cool too. So so she so could she. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Absolutely. So I would I've made it a point to always say, you know, it's so cliche, but you can do whatever you want to do. You know, not not whatever you want to do. You can do anything you put, you know, put your mind to. And don't everybody, and I would, but I would always really drive home the point of like more importantly, like, don't you ever let anyone tell you that you can't do something, like ever. Like ever, ever, ever. I fact I I I I use that in my talks these days because even as grown adults, I'd say, listen, before we get started today, I'm gonna give everybody permission real quick. And I'm gonna let you know, yes, you can. And people are looking at me like, what is this guy crazy? I'm like, listen, this may seem a little woo, but sometimes we need a little bit of woo. You know, somewhere along the line, someone told us that we couldn't do something and we believed them, and then we started to live our lives according to that. Today we can change it all, and that's same same applies with you know with kids. And fuck, I gotta give myself that talk sometimes. I get it. Yes, you can. Well, Mara, so great to finally meet you and chat with you and learn more about your business. I mean, I know you're an absolute rock star at what you do, and uh you've you've you've built a great, great business and reputation um on the back of all that. So I just want to encourage you to to keep up all the great work uh that that you're doing. It's so great to finally connect and and get you on the show here.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Um do you have a podcast?

SPEAKER_01 25:40

I'd be I'd be remiss not to ask.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

I don't have a podcast.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

I'm in need of a copy overhaul. I mean, just gonna throw that out there real quick. So uh don't have a podcast. All right, I want to keep that in mind.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Let's see, it does not have podcast on here. I told you I like to hide behind the computer.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

This is true. We just turn the camera off with podcasting. That's the most beautiful part. Everybody's trying, everyone's running to the camera for like podcasting, and most people are terrified uh of the camera on here. You can totally hide behind the mic. I say hide behind the mic, turn the camera off. Sounds good to me. Mayor, it's been great to chat with you and learn more about your story and and what you're doing here. Keep up the the the great work. Any final thoughts for our listeners?

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Um, I'll I'll tack on to what you said. You can do it.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

That's right. Yes, you can. Absolutely. Until further notice, celebrate everything. All right.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Sounds good. Mary.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Yeah, you do the same thing as well. Thanks again for your time. And uh, we'll have to have you back on the show sometime and get an update on how things are going in your world.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Would love that. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Thank you. Until next time, friends. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of the Beyond the Story Podcast. We sure do appreciate it. If you haven't done so already, make sure you're subscribed to the show. This way you'll get updates as new episodes become available. If you feel so inclined, please leave us a review. We sure do appreciate it. Signing off from the podcast, launchlab.com studios. We'll talk to you next time.