EPISODE 17: The Social Media Sucks Show - Mitch Jackson : Social Media Copyright Law

SPEAKER_01 0:02

What is happening, everybody? Welcome to the social media suck show. I'm your host, Sebastian Rusk. As always, hey, welcome, welcome to the show. My guest this week, attorney extraordinaire and social media influencer and live streaming animal. Mr. Mitch Jackson's in the house. What's happening, Mitch?

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Hey, what's going on, Sebastian? It's good to be here. It's good to be here, my man.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

It's good to have you on here. I think that you and I actually met um through a blab. So it's crazy. I've I've had several guests over the past couple of months just because I've randomly barged into blab. So welcome to the show. Thanks for your time.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Absolutely. It's a pleasure. I love what you're doing. I like your blabs, and I'm honored uh to have a chance to connect with you and connect with your awesome audience. Likewise.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Likewise. So I know that I want to respect everyone's time, including yours as well. I know we've got just under an hour uh to rock and roll here. I do want to open the hot seat up towards the end, get some questions filtered in here. You know, social media and the law and the legal aspect of things, I think those are things that, and correct me if I'm wrong, go go go go overlooked sometimes and can really result in in a in a in a big mess for your business or your brand if you're not careful. And you're and we're gonna get into how you started live streaming, but I want to preface things with social media and the legal side of things. That's what we've titled this um this episode. So I want people to really understand because I think there's some things, Mitch, that that that they're not seeing that if they know what they don't know, that they don't know, they probably will be doing things a different way. What are what are what are a couple of things that you've seen that are really absolutely right off the bat must that should be done?

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Well, let me first say that you know, uh let's let's address the elephant in the room, and that is I'm a lawyer, I'm a lawyer on Blab. And uh some some of us are actually, we really try to help people, we try to bring value. So it's not a bad thing, it's a good thing. And having said that, although I'm a lawyer, you know, Sebastian, I'm not your lawyer, I'm not the lawyer of your audience, so the California State Bar does not let me give legal advice over the internet like this, but I will share some thoughts and opinions because I think that's what's important. And you're absolutely right. One of the things I've seen is that because it's so easy to point and click and broadcast, a lot of people really don't think things through all the way with respect to what the legal rights are, whether it's intellectual property rights, copyright law, copyright laws, uh defamation laws, privacy laws. Yeah, it's it's fast and furious here on the internet and especially on live streaming. So it'll be interesting to see how things develop over the next couple of years.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Yeah, so so and I and I and I yeah, and I'm glad you gave that disclosure. I didn't want nothing specific. Obviously, you know, we we we can't, we're not there yet. I think the future will allow you to do consultations through the internet somehow, and um it probably already exists, and I just I I just don't know about it. But um, it was more of an it was like an overview of like, hey, you know, there there are ramifications in in certain things that pertain to social media um without getting into specifics, but there really is there really is a niche there. And I think probably the the first thing that comes to mind is a brand having a social media policy in place and why that's so important both internally and externally.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

The biggest issue that that we see, a lot of uh lawyers see with live streaming with social media, and I talked about this at the Periscope Summit, New York, on the legal panel that I was on with Ruth Carter, who's an amazing copyright intellectual property attorney out of Phoenix, Arizona. And I defer to her because this isn't my area of expertise. I'm a litigation and trial lawyer, but but I I know you know a little bit or enough to get people going in the right direction with respect to social and live streaming. The biggest issue we see is with people violating copyright laws. Okay, taking other people's images, other people's property, work product, and using it for their own purposes online, whether it's live streaming, whether it's taking someone else's image and using it on a social media post, things like that. That's where we see some of the biggest problems. Playing music that you don't have ownership rights to. Uh, to start off a show can be a bit of a challenge. Karaoke playing music in the background and broadcasting.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Yeah, you hear that, Vincenzo? Are you in here, Vincenzo?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

But the thing about it, the thing about I called I told Vincenzo he's got you know unlimited legal resources to back him up because I love the guy's style, I like his voice, and I want that dude to karaoke all that he wants. But the reality is a lot of people don't think things through all the way. And so you want to be careful and just respect the fact that if you don't own the image, the song, the item that you're using on social media without the owner's permission, you probably don't have the legal right to use it. There are several exceptions under the fair use doctrine. If you're using somebody else's image, photo, song, uh, video for commentary, for a critique, for a news story, there are some exceptions, but I would suggest that you check with a lawyer in your city and state to see whether or not your intended use falls under one of those exceptions. It's complicated stuff.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Yeah, I and I again I wouldn't even start to try and understand it. Um looks like we've got some uh comments from the peanut gallery. I mean, um the comment section here. And um Owen said that uh he's had two issues with his clients. Um, they've run into with Getty as far as images are concerned, and also California court ruled in favor of video creators using songs in the backgrounds as fair use. Songs cannot be part of the content, though.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Well, look, it's it's actual federal copyright law primarily, and every single case that you might read about or hear on TV, the facts are different. The application of the law is different. So just because one court ruled one way doesn't mean the court's going to rule in your favor uh in your particular case. I would simply suggest that anybody thinking about using somebody else's products or services on their show, especially with live streaming, because that's where we see it. You know, get the owner's permission before you do it. But since Owen brought that up, let's talk about the four primary exceptions to uh uh, well, the fair use doctrine. Okay, in other words, do you have the right to use somebody else's song, image, video on your show, on your website, on your social media platform? The general rule under the fair use doctrine, and let me just read it to you, my notes. It says the fair use is a legal exception to the exclusive rights of an owner that he or she has for their copyrighted work. There are limits, um, and the courts have the ultimate decision-making ability as to what falls under fair use. If you're using an item for criticism, for comment, for news reporting, for teaching, which includes multiple copies of an item for classroom work, for a scholarship, or research, that would fall under the fair use doctrine. Now, I'm not sure what Owen's referring to, but what he's referring to doesn't fall under that exception. So I'm not familiar with that particular case or the facts of that particular case. So you just need to be careful out there. Get someone's permission before you use their stuff. Sure. And how long have you been practicing law, Mitch? Well, I'll tell you what, uh 30 years, 30 years rolling into 2016. And uh I've never been more excited about practicing law. And my my wife, my partner, Lisa Wilson, who we met, who I met in law school, she feels the same way. We're we've never been more excited than we are today. With social media, with live streaming, with the ability to use these platforms and connect with people, with the ability to use these platforms and help other people, to bring customer and client experiences to a new level. It makes life exciting. It's really, really a great time to be an entrepreneur, to roll out your business, to build new levels of your business that have never been available before. That's why I'm on social. I'm not on social to give legal advice, to help people legally. I mean, the reason I'm on social, Sebastian, is it allows me to connect with people. My sphere of influence used to be Southern California. We were talking about before we went live, you know, Orange County, California, and you being out here and spending time out here. This is where my law firm was fairly well known. These were the people that I was able to help with social since 1996, with our first blog website up through the present, primarily the last five or six years with social, and the last couple of years with live streaming, we've been able to use these platforms to take our Southern California brand and expand it globally. So what's happened now is we have connections around the world, people that reach out with financial, you know, with uh charitable needs, reach out and want legal help, and we can get them going with a good lawyer in their country, in their state. And it's just really a great opportunity to kind of spread the word that we're all in this together, we're all here to help each other. And uh social media and live streaming is allowing us to do that. And everybody, everyone that's watching the show, it's a new ability to connect with more people and expand our sphere of influence. And it's just so damn exciting. I I hope it shows because I'm I'm giddy when I talk about this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yeah, it it it it it really does. And you know, I you guys are you guys are um, yeah, we're gonna answer your questions in just two seconds here. Let me finish my thought. Um, Sunday and and Owen, we're gonna get right to you. Um attorneys are are are great at at putting together a sphere of um you know, like of referral base. Like I don't practice this kind of law, but I've got some so I got a solid arsenal of attorneys that do. And you refer business back and forth to each other, and it is extremely fruitful, at least from what my my experience has been. We work with a lot of attorneys um with the agency here, uh, just because I don't know what light went off a couple years ago, but the regulations eased up a little bit, and attorneys were like, I'm in. Because I'm I'm I'm uh uh B and I is a client of mine, B and I Miami, and they've that come that's comprised of about 34 different chapters, um, obviously very highly populated with attorneys um and traditional um uh traditional forms forms of work. So um being the social media guy was always the new guy, so they're always kind of like, I don't know about that. And then you I you know I run into a you know matrimony, a divorce attorney, and they're like, Listen, I'm using Facebook to build a case here. I don't want nothing to do with it. So they they look at the initial thought that it was a uh it was a negative um ramification from it, but now see it as an actual tool, especially when someone needs advice, needs an attorney, somebody got arrested, somebody there's a life happens um in social media being able to connect people like that um is a tremendous amount of value. What what have been what have been some of the what's probably what been the most valuable thing you've been able to extract out of leveraging social media for such a traditional side uh type of business as a law firm?

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Sure, I'll tell you that's a real easy answer. The the the the best part about social and live streaming is it's allowed us to show our human side to the world, our human side to our audience, to our clients, to our potential clients, and their referrals. Um, one of the things about professionals is that up until social media, up until live streaming, and I can just speak speak for myself. I'm a first generation professional in my family. I'm the first person from my immediate family to graduate from college, first person to go to law school. I remember walking into an attorney's office when I was about 18 years old, and I was nervous. You know, it was not a productive interaction. I forgot what I wanted to ask him. It was just a very nervous, uncomfortable experience. I was intimidated. And one of the cool things about social and live streaming is it allows people to see the human side of professionals, whether you're a lawyer, a doctor, a dentist, a psychiatrist, whatever it might be. And I think it breaks down barriers and it allows people to feel comfortable with you and they start to trust you and they start to build rapport with you and you start to help each other. And I think to in today's world, Sebastian, I think you'll agree with me, you know, it's all about the client experience now. It's all about how you make somebody feel, it's all about what value you bring to other people's lives on the social and digital platforms. What better way for, in my ex, you know, in my uh uh situation as a lawyer to use these platforms to try to help others, to try to show that there's much more to me than just being an attorney. I mean, if you were to ask me, you know, who am I and what do I do? You know, I'm a husband of 27 years, I'm a father, I'm a Rotarian, I'm a frustrated motocross rider because I don't get to get out as much as I like to. And I also happen to be a trial lawyer. I mean, there's a package here, and I love helping people, and the social platforms and live streaming allow me to do just that. So it's it's all about being human. And I think that's what other professionals need to embrace instead of being worried about. They're worried about going on live and saying something wrong. They're worried about going live and showing their true colors. And in today's business world, you can't afford to think that way because if you have that mindset, you may not have a practice to go to in three to five years.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Right. Yeah, exactly. And you know, what would they would they decline Fox News calling and wanting to talk about their law firm because it did something significant in the town in their in the their local town? You know, I I think not. So, you know, they would choose their words carefully in that form. I mean, live streaming works the same way. However, you've got to be as transparent as you possibly can because people can read you and they can feel you and they get your vibe in the whole nine because it's live. And this is this is this is live and uncut. And uh that's the best part about it. It is, you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

And I love Owen's comment. You know, lawyers are pansy when it pansies when it comes to social. You're right, you know, and it's not just lawyers, it's professionals. They they approach it the wrong way. They stand up on a soapbox and they shout at the world and yell at the world, buy my services, hire me, call me if this happens to you. Instead of using inbound marketing strategies, instead of spending 90% of your time offering value, trying to help other people, sharing your secret sauce, putting it all out there, building relationships, being transparent. I mean, that's what you need to do today in any type of business, especially a service-oriented business. And so it's it's just really energized uh me personally. I mean, if you've met, I don't know how many lawyers you've met who have practiced for 30 years, most of them are burned-out dinosaurs. I'm just telling you, I love these guys and gals, they're awesome people, but they're ready to do something else. I feel like I'm just getting started.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Hey, my buddy wrote a book um that's in BI with me called Um The Practice. Okay called uh Brutal Truths About Lawyers and Lawyering. Interesting. His name is uh Brian Tannebaum. I'd love to get you a copy of. I haven't seen Brian in quite some time, but it was not it was very cool to see him. You know, he's very active with social media as well. Too attorney here in uh in Miami. I don't know what kind of law he practices. I'll check it out. I'll check it out. The book's pretty much written, you know, by by a lawyer for for for lawyers as well. Um, but I that just happened to uh to to bob my mind. So um thanks so much for everybody uh for joining in here. Uh and speaking of that, quick station identification. If you're just jumping in and you are wondering what in the world you have just jumped into, well, this is this right here is a social media sucks show. My name's Sebastian Rusk. I am a social media strategist, and I wrote a book called Social Media Sucks. If you don't know what you're doing, this week we're chatting with my buddy Mitch Jackson. He is a uh trial attorney, but most important, a social media influencer and somebody who has taken 30 years of law experience to start embracing social media and building meaningful relationships and really leveraging all of his skill set. He's got a great business running there and he's very active. So I'm stoked to have the the old school. You're like a you're a trailblazer for marching the old school into the new school.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

I'll take that as a compliment because here's the deal everything that you and I see on social that people are doing right, it was being done 30 years ago offline. It's all about people skills. You know, one of the best books I've ever read is Bob Berg's book, Adversaries into Allies. And everyone watching the show should get that book. I will not mentor a young lawyer anymore with with respect to trial advocacy skills until they've read, highlighted, and talked to me about Bob's book, Adversaries into Allies. Unless you have people skills, you're not going to be successful. Those people skills are 10 times more important today on live stream and on social than ever before. So what I'm really excited about doing is bringing, you know, 20 years of marketing and relationship building techniques onto the digital platforms and seeing what works, seeing what doesn't work, watching some of the new millennials jump onto the platforms. And with all the excitement that they bring and their new approach to doing business and building relationships, incorporating some of those techniques, bringing them back into the law firm. I have friends of mine where I'll be down at the courthouse and they'll say, Mitch, I saw that post that you made. Where did you get that idea? And it's from another industry. It's from somebody that has nothing to do with practicing law. It's from a 21-year-old posting a video of himself bicycle uh mountain biking down a trail that you couldn't pay me to ride down because it's you know 500 feet on each side of the mountain. But I'll take that idea and I'll turn it around into a blog post about the risk of going to trial uh without being prepared. So it's interesting how we can all learn from each other. And I think that's what's most exciting about live streaming Blab and Periscope.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Yeah, absolutely. Um I was just getting a link here. Um I know Bob, um, I know Bob pretty well. Um so he's got uh yeah, he's uh he definitely knows what he's talking about. Oh, here we go.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

I was gonna here's uh here's uh if you go to um if you go to any of my websites, uh mylawyerocks.com, streaminglawyer.com, and type in Bob Berg, B-U-R-G, it will take you to a link to his book. And there you go, you just stuck it over in the comments.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Yeah, I met Bob a couple years back. One of my mentors here in Miami's name is Bruce Trickell, and um he's a uh you know he's he's a branding guy, he's been in the business for for 30 years now, but um he's very active in NSA National Speakers Association, and um Bob is as well, and he hosted two-day intensive uh because everybody he did the main stage at NSA a few years back, and everyone and their brother was like, I want to work with you, I want to work with you. He's like, hold on a second. Not everybody's a fit, but I'll put together a package and you can spend two days and fly to Miami, spend the weekend with me. And um, I actually spoke at that and had a great opportunity to connect with him, but Bob was one of the guys that that that was there. Um so yes, the world keeps getting tinier. I'm telling you, Kevin Bacon doesn't have anything on us, Mitch.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

No, he doesn't, other than good looks and talent, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Yeah, absolutely. So um um what what's the been the most exciting thing that's happened to you um with with with the live streaming side of things? Like, has it been like has there been have have you have you gotten any cases or been referred to any business or like has is has anything transferred to dollars? Because I mean that's not always the important part, it's the marathon we're running, but heck, you know, if I got a lot of friends in Orange County, you know what I mean? So, you know, the odds of me sending you a referral aren't impossible, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 19:55

The uh it has been amazing, it's been unbelievable. Um, the ROI, we you know it's an informal ROI. Our front office asks people where did they hear from us, who referred them to us, where do they find us if they say the internet? Where are the internet? Well, I follow Mitch on Twitter or I connect with him or Lisa on Facebook, whatever it might be. We follow them on Periscope. So we try to get a really good read on where people are coming to us from. Most of our clients are referred to us by past clients, by local judges, by local claims adjusters, and things like that. Um, having said that, it has been unbelievable, well into the seven figures. It's just been an incredible um business model that, you know, that's why I do it. I do it to help people, but it's also the ROI has been amazing with our law firm. Specific examples, uh, back in 2000, uh probably 2006, 2007, with early social media, but primarily blogging, a case came to us that another prominent law firm rejected. They didn't think they could win the case. And the family came in and it was very difficult, police misconduct, wrongful death type of case. What you're seeing on TV right now, the abuse, uh, the uh excessive use of force cases. Okay, before people were wearing body cams, um, this is one of those types of cases, uh, which we ended up taking. Our hearts went out to the family. We litigated it for about four and a half years, took it to trial. A jury came back at $5.5 million. And because of that case, I was named Orange County Trial Lawyer of the Year in 2009. That's a direct result of blogging. That case would not have come into my office had it not been for my online activity. Uh, over the last three and a half years, we have monitored those numbers uh primarily with just social media. We've separated blogging, and it's just been incredible. And so the secret is I do things a little bit different, Sebastian, and maybe we can talk about this if your audience is interested, but I usually don't include a call to action. What I really do try to do is just add value. What I really try to do is break. Down barriers, how people think about lawyers, and just you know, pick a topic and share my thoughts on how to deal with that topic. And if people are interested, they can reach out to me or any other lawyer or any other person, depending on what that topic is. It's a very, very soft, uh, almost non-existent right hook when it's all said and done. And that's worked really, really well for us when it comes to live streaming, when it comes to social media. I don't know. What do you think about that, not including a call to action?

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yeah, I don't think you need to. Yeah, I don't pitch anybody.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

I don't need to pitch you. If you like my bow tie and how I roll and what I do and my content and what I've done and what my clients say about me, we're gonna do business together. If I don't need, I don't ever need to give you a call to action because you can find me on about 19 different, you can just Google me and probably get in touch with me within a couple of minutes. It's a different dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

I mean, it's a different dynamic. There's a lot of experts out there that talk about everything you do needs to end with a CDA. And the reality is, I don't think, I know I don't like to be marketed to. I don't like being interrupted by television commercials. I don't like being in when I'm watching Walking Dead on Sunday night. It's my one time to veg out and just chill and have a glass of calf and watch something totally unrelated to my life on TV. And it's like every 45 seconds, every 45 seconds there's a freaking commercial. And I don't think consumers like being interrupted anymore. So why be that company, why be that person, why be that professional to do interruptive type of marketing? Instead, add value, um, share your knowledge, help when you can. I had someone reach out to me this morning that watched uh a periscope we did on how to deal with internet trolls. And this person wasn't going to be a client of mine. She's not from my state, but I went ahead and returned her phone call just to try to answer her questions and get her going in the right direction. And it took five minutes of my time, and I think I really was able to help her. That's why I'm practicing law. I'm practicing law because I like helping people and I'm practicing law. Also, there's another side story. I don't like bullies. Okay. I I being a lawyer gives me the opportunity to protect people who, for whatever reason, either don't have the expertise or the finances or skills to protect themselves against wrongdoers. That's why I became a lawyer with social media, with live streaming. It's really allowed me to help more people more efficiently in more areas 24-7. And that's what I like about it.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Sure. Yeah, that is in the the the flexibility of being able to now people can reach out to you, sending you a tweet, friending you on Facebook, joining in one of your blabs. I mean, you truly are a great resource. So don't uh don't stop what you're doing there, Mitch. You're doing a great job, buddy. Just getting started, my friend. Yeah, man. So uh let's go to some questions real quick. Sunny by Dow, what's happening Sunday? Um can you speak to copyright issues using Snippy?

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Explain to me. I'm not really sure I know what Snipply is. Is that taking bits of uh posts and using it for your own purposes? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

I think you can like mouse over and highlight specific stuff and like drag and drop and use the content.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Yeah, you know, I'll tell you what, like I said earlier, uh Sunday, if I understand your question correctly, unless you've got permission from the owner of the copyrighted item, it's probably smart not to use that item unless it falls under one of the exceptions to the fair use uh doctrine that I talked about earlier in the show. I mean, I don't want to give you the lawyer answer, but this is complicated stuff. And if you've got a lot writing on a piece of uh material that you're using or planning on using, I would talk to a lawyer before using it.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Uh okay, awesome. Uh hope did that answer your question, Sunday? I hope so. If not, you can always um follow Mitch and send him a tweet and hit him up, and uh that's what he's here as a resource.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Yeah, but also, you know, uh contact Ruth Carter. Ruth was on the panel with me in New York, she's out of Phoenix. It's um uh just Google Ruth Carter, Phoenix, Arizona. She's a copyright intellectual property attorney. And what's really cool, Sebastian, is I was reading one of our American Bar Association magazines, and they did a profile on Ruth handling flash mob law. And I thought to myself, wow, I didn't realize that there was a niche there with flash mob law. And that's how Ruth and I connected. And I I just refer my copyright and intellectual property questions to her. So I would suggest Sunday reach out and contact Ruth. She's easy to get along with, and she'll answer Sunday's questions.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

Yeah, how about that for uh for uh from some for some follow-up here? I missed my next cue that I had lined up here. All right, um, Owen, Owen with another question. Owen's got great questions today, Owen. Um what's the difference between royalty free and licensed music?

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Wow, royalty free. You know what? I'm not really sure. I'm not really sure, Owen, and I don't want to give you bad advice. I hope you can appreciate my honesty and transparency on this. It's just not my area of expertise. But if you're gonna play music, make sure you do it with a lawyer on the show. Sebastian and I are probably in this together. Yeah. You know, you know, what I really like focusing on, I'll tell you, Sebastian, is how people can use social, can use the digital platforms uh to really sing their own unique song, to share their art. I had I had a friend of mine who's a very well-known Rotarian in town, and he's a very well-known business guy. And he's like, Mitch, there's so much going on online, it's so noisy. You know, how do you how do you get your message heard? And I love it when I hear that because it's so noisy because so many people are doing things the wrong way. So if you embrace social and get involved and start participating on the digital platforms the right way, it's actually fairly easy to stand out. You know, in other words, the more noise the better, because if you're the one that's creating the right type of message, you're going to stand out. The glass is always half full, at least that's the way I look at it. And so I really focus my attention on doing stuff like that. And it just keeps things fun, it keeps things exciting. And uh, you know, it keeps me speaking across the country, it keeps me traveling to different seminars. And I like balancing the practice of law with what's happening here on the social media platforms. It's kind of fun. You had Brian Kramer on uh a week or two ago, and um, you know, I had known who Brian was before social media, before live streaming, but I've only gotten to know him through a couple of live streaming shows. Uh we connect on Snapchat all the time and share pictures. It's really cool. But there are really amazing people that I would not have otherwise met had it not been for social and live streaming. And that to me is one of the most exciting things about this.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

I I totally agree with that. And I have strategically, you know, or well, I'm not strategically. I guess it is somewhat. Yeah, it has been strategic. The people that I have, I have, I have chosen to, Gary V was on the top of the list right out of the gates. I didn't even know what I was gonna do, how I was gonna build the brand. I read Crush It. I don't even think I finished reading it. I didn't even need to get it. I read the audio part. I immediately tracked down um Gary and we connected and um and uh right out of the gates, I just knew like I'm gonna mimic whatever this guy's doing. I'm just gonna follow his lead. And this guy's absolutely crushing it, literally. And a year later, I found myself um here in Miami with Gary, spent an hour with him, uh, and a film crew called me um at the bookstore where Gary's book uh signing was gonna be and said, Hey, um, we've seen your work and we just saw um um uh that um some of your work and we want to work with you. We just did Russell Simmons book signing um at Books and Books, and I'm like, that's the same place. And they're like, Well, we want to work with you. Um, when's the next opportunity? I'm like, what are you doing Tuesday? And they literally rolled in camera crew the whole nine. So coming full circle was um thanks so much, Patricia Ann. Uh was awesome. That was number one. Then I got involved with the guys at Social Fresh. I don't know if you know Jason Keith and the crew at Social Fresh, but um, I showed up there probably three and a half years ago, and um and I said, uh, hey, listen, I know you guys don't have an MC, and um I'm I'm a really good MC and I wear bow ties. Plus, when I'm not on stage, I'll be tweeting and posting and running around creating content. Like just let me in um or let me be the MC. And Jason's, you know, like the opposite of me, just complete introvert. And he's like, All right, this guy's nuts. He calls me six months later, he's like, All right, let's give it a shot. They do Social Fresh East and West, and they bring in big brands uh like Radio Shack and Intuit and uh Patron Tequila, big brands to come in and be able to talk about what they're doing uh behind the scenes uh with social media um uh and it's incredible content, right? So you can go there and find out what JetBlue actually does behind the scenes. So part of that process is I've been able to connect with those speakers and the people that are there as being the MC, I'm always hanging out with them. I gotta know who they are, I gotta learn more about them. We're hanging out in the green room, we're going to the VIP parties, etc. So it's really a unique opportunity. And I did that strategically to be able to develop a relationship with them so that after the conference, I could say, Hey, can I have you on my show? Can I have you on my podcast? And of course, nobody wants to say no to an opportunity for someone to talk about them or help them promote something that they're currently doing. Um, so that that's been that's been a phenomenal um uh program that I've been able to execute as far as making new friends, I guess if you will. Because when it was time to write my book, they said, What do you want to do with the back cover? And I'm like, I don't know. You're the publisher. What do you do with back covers? Like, I don't even read books, like let alone write one, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Um, the the person that I was um uh that I had asked about this said, Hey, why don't you read, dude? You know a lot of people. Why don't you reach out to these people and see if they'll give you a paragraph on the back of the book, uh, give them an advanced copy and have them say a couple things. So um I immediately was like, so as soon as I got the book deal, Jay Bear was with me in Philadelphia at this at the NSA conference. So I told him about this and he's like, you should totally run with it. And I said, Great. Um will you write the forward? And he said, sure, you gotta give me two weeks. I was like, well, that was check one off the list there. And then when I went back to other people, buddies like Brian Kramer and Ted Rubin and Scott Monty, um, my my bow tie brother Scott Monty, um, those guys were on board 100%. Like, dude, we got you, man. Give us, you know, a month or three weeks or whatever you need. So it really started to come together and show like they're my friends and like relationships I've built through the story I was able to tell. And that only happens through social media for sure.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

It does, you know, um it's interesting to hear you say all that because there are I probably interact with people more often each week on social than I do on my street where I live. And we have a tight street. I mean, we're we're all buddies, we all hang out, sheep baskets, hang out on weekends. But I think during the course of the week, uh, you know, I've got friends that have clicked in here today. Lindsay, the Ohio social mom, she and I met in New York at Periscope Summit. Lindsay's awesome. We got Patricia, she and I have connected, and Nancy, who's just a marketing wizard. I mean, these are all people that we interact on a weekly basis, more so than a lot of people, a lot of people online. You know, it's just interesting how it's a good opportunity to build relationships, to connect with people who you can relate to who are interesting to you, who you want to get to know more about. Um, our last trip over to the UK, a family trip about four or five months ago, I made sure to have lunch with Chrissy Lightfoot. And I don't know if you know Chrissy Lightfoot, but she's the author of two books. According to LinkedIn, she's the most connected barrister or solicitor in the UK, female solicitor in the UK. And any relation to Gordon? Uh I don't think so. Okay. But what was really cool is over the course of the last three or four years, because of social, I've been lucky enough to be profiled in several of her books. And so when we went over there, I had a chance to sit down and have lunch with her. And it really felt like I was sitting down with an old friend. It wasn't a situation where it was an awkward first-time lunch with somebody. It's like we immediately we had already bonded, and now we're just taking it to the next level. And it was a very enjoyable situation. And that's what's really cool about social. And I think a lot of businesses, a lot of professionals, a lot of companies, when they take this approach when dealing with their clients and their customers, when they genuinely try to connect, they genuinely try to relate to other people and provide an awesome experience. That's where those connections come from. That's where the business comes from. I mean, Brian Solis in his latest book, which I absolutely love if you haven't read it. It's it's called Um X, The Experience When Business Meets Design. The experience when business meets design. If you guys haven't read Brian's book, get it. It's awesome. But he talks about how it's all about the customer and how you make that customer feel. It's all about the customer experience. They don't want to be contacted by brands, they want to be contacted via relationships. So you can be a brand and build that relationship and create an experience that customers and clients talk about on social. They share on social, they refer through social. He talks about that as actually being the new SEO type of focus. Instead of, and I've talked about SEO, the traditional search engine optimization. I've talked about it in my mind, it should actually be social engineering optimization. In other words, it's what we do on social that will result in contacts, eyeballs coming back to your site, your phone ringing, your email inbox filling up, your direct messages on Facebook and Twitter lighting up. That's what it takes to get the dance going, you know. So it's just interesting to see how business has changed over the last, you know, for me, last 30 years since I first, you know, rolled out the welcome mat and said, I'm open for business.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Sure. That is crazy. Yeah, I must be able to see how that's evolved. But you know, we we we have never um this is hands down the most exciting time to be alive because it's never been easier to start a business, it's never been easier to connect. Um, I enjoy being able to connect with influencers that I know come into town just because I follow them online. Um, and you know, somebody comes to Miami, I always hit them up and say, Hey, what's up? Welcome to Miami. What brings you to town? I'm here to speak, I'm here for a gig, I'm here on vacation, would love to have a cocktail with you at my hotel. Here's where I'm staying. Um, and I also do airport runs too for influencers. So when I know somebody's coming in town, I'll get in touch with their camp, figure out they got to figure out that I know when I go somewhere and whatever town I'm going to speak in, there's always travel logistics. And I would prefer to have somebody that I already know um picking me up, know online that I want to meet offline. Um who was it? It was um it was Mark Schaefer, was here in Miami, and he had been on my podcast like a a year before, I think it was sometime last year, and he checked in on Miami Beach, and um I'm like, what's up, Mark? I'd love to meet you in person. He's like, absolutely, meet me at the bar at six o'clock um on the beach. So I did that, and um, and he broke it down perfectly. He said, You know, I'm supposed to go to this stuffy dinner tonight. I spoke today, I'm gonna give a talk again tomorrow, and I'm supposed to go to the dinner, but you know what? This is the shit I like. And I'm like, the vodka? He's like, no, that too. He's like, This, I knew you offline, I knew you online, and now we're we're connecting offline um and being able to have a real true conversation and really be able to take some real nuggets of wisdom from him. Mark's doing a great job um with what he does and his brand and and speaking around the world, um, and just an absolutely brilliant mind. So to spend an hour and a half with them um and um and and and connect offline is just it's incredible. But you know, 10 years ago, if you said you were following me, I'd call the police.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Exactly, and so would I. And you know what's interesting is at least for me as a lawyer, a lot of people um they will not reach out and try to contact a lawyer. They're worried about the cost, the expense. There's whatever the issues are, and I get that. We talked about that earlier in this lab. And I think one of the cool things about social, whether whatever you're doing for a living, is if you you can really share your true self with your audience so that they'll feel comfortable reaching out. And if you can help them or if they can help you, you can have that dynamic. You brought up Mark Schaefer, the UK trip I was just mentioning, I read his latest book, Flying Over and Flying Back. And I think what's really what my takeaway with the latest book, I don't remember the name of it, but what he talked about was the importance of understanding that at one time on the social platforms, it was all about content. Content is king. And that's kind of evolved, and it's evolved where there's a lot of very, very good, talented, smart people and companies putting out outstanding content. So the next element is if you're not sharing it in the right context on the right platforms in the right way, then you're not going to be heard. Your song's not going to be recognized by your audience. But then Mark takes it one more step and he says, that's not enough anymore because there's a lot of great companies and people putting out good content in the right context. What you need to do is you need to share the content in the right context with your own unique art, using your own unique song. And that's how you rise above the noise on social. So my takeaway from his latest book was just that, you know, we've talked about that a little bit in this show. You know, and that's a great takeaway, if nothing else from this lab. Share your content with the right context using your own song and your own art. And you'll be amazed at what happens when you look back in December 2016, 12 months from now. I'm telling you, good things are going to be happening. It's it's an exciting time.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

I yeah, I Google myself a lot, not just because I like to go look at my own content, but I'm curious on what the hell I've been up to for the past six years. And um, you know, that's not a that's not a very um, that's not a very uh that's a very pompous uh um response to someone and Google me, but um I do it, but I don't talk about it publicly. Um just to see, in fact, that you know, Gary talks a lot about we're archiving our lives for our children. We're literally archiving our lives on YouTube. My daughter will be able to sit with her kids and say your grandfather is or was, or whatever the case may be, is an absolute certified bowtie wearing nut who built his brand online. Here, check out some videos from back in 2012. 2012. Wow, cool people used YouTube then. Um, so we're archiving our lives. So, you know, what happens in Vegas stays on YouTube. Um, but uh we're also telling the story of our lives. Like we, you know, it's it's a collaboration. I think it's always fun to look through an old old photo album. I actually um um have the old slides from the 70s um when my folks would take family vacations and whatnot, and we got the screen, we just don't have the bulb for the actual what's it called? You gotta we gotta get the bulb replaced, but we're actually going to be able to, you know, have um slide night, you know, and and take a trip down memory lane to the lake. Call it projector. Yeah, yeah. There we go. Projector. Yeah, exactly. I think that's what it's called. No, I know what a project. Yeah, yeah. I asked my daughter. Yeah, no, I asked my daughter the other day with a I picked up a cassette and I go, Do you know what this is? And she said, I have absolutely no idea.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Yeah, it's it's so cool that we're able to uh to document, to uh record all of our experiences, all of the different things that that we experience through life. And I think what's really important for professionals to do, at least my my approach to show my human side is about 70 to 80 percent of what I share has nothing to do with the practice of law. It has to do with my outside lifestyle and activities, pictures of my son's soccer and football games, uh, mentioning things about my daughter at UCLA and what she's doing with her life, things about my wife and my family. And then every once in a while I'll sprinkle it with some legal stuff because I'm not even interested in reading legal stuff online, okay? What I'm interested in is getting more involved with other people. And um it's an interesting dynamic. I think um Chocolate Johnny, hey Chocolate Johnny, I don't know if you know Johnny from Australia, but he's going to be at the Periscope Summit in San Francisco. And I loved your uh your show last night, Johnny. That was awesome, man. Very touching. You know, kudos to you. But yeah, connect you guys with Chocolate Johnny and everybody that's watching. This is just an amazing group of people. But you know what's fascinating is it's a great opportunity to do good. These platforms are a great opportunity for all individuals, for all companies, regardless of what you're doing, to bring some good to your local community, the national community, and the international community. It's not always easy, but it is always necessary. And I think when you approach live streaming and social from that perspective, I think people connect with you, people relate to you. Forget about the negative talk, forget about the trolls, forget about the unkind comments, and focus on the good people in the world, the people that are embracing these platforms, that want to help others, that want to make the world a better place. And that for me is when I get home at night and I'm exhausted and I put my head down on the pillow, if I've tried to follow that philosophy, Sebastian, you know, I close my eyes and I fall asleep. I mean, it's been a good day. And, you know, so many people just Get so wrapped up in all the negativity, and they try to use these platforms for the wrong reasons, and they wonder why things aren't clicking the way they want them to. And uh I'm just saying, just go for it, guys, and have some fun.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

100%. So um, hey guys, if you have any questions, you want to jump in the uh hot seat. We're gonna be wrapping things up here in just a couple minutes, but I don't want to um, you mentioned trolls a couple times, and I know that's a popular topic among live streamers. I haven't figured out a way to um to keep them at bay. In fact, I gave a talk last week and I periscoped the talk, but I wasn't manning my phone or the camera, so and I wanted the archive, so I just turned the comments off. And I probably drastically affected my attendance, but I still got the recording on there, but I did it for fear of you know, trolls won that time or put the potential of them. What what how did how does someone handle them? And it, you know, it what does it does it get to a point where it's so bad that um you know legal action needs to be brought upon or or created? You know, how's this all work?

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Well, I am at a different page, even though you can see me, because I'm gonna share a link with you. And I shared a blog post uh called How to Stop Internet Trolls. And it's at streaminglawyer.com. And I'm going to put it over into the notes right now. And there we go. And in this blog post, what we did is my takeaway from Periscope Summit uh in New York is there was a panel talking about how trolls were uh affecting these particular four or five people, and it was very um it was it affected me a great deal listening to their stories. I haven't had the experiences that these people have had, and I left there thinking I need to do something about this. So I sat down and laid out in the link what people need to do to deal with trolls, both casual trolls, trolls that just come in, and it's just sport trolling where they're just trying to create a ruckus, they're not really trying to harm everyone, to the types of trolls that are criminal trolls, they're trying to ruin your lives, they're trying to encourage teenage suicide, they're trying to take businesses uh down and shut their doors. And so at the blog post at streaminglawyer.com, we've we've laid out different ways to deal with trolls. We've talked about different laws, we've even included several template cease and desist letters because there are ways to deal with trolls. Uh in the UK, you you're looking at two years in jail. In the UK, they're putting about five an average of five trolls in jail each and every day. Could you imagine that conversation?

SPEAKER_01 46:38

So what are you in for?

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Well, they finally got me trolling. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

You know, it's all need to be locked up and fed warm bread and warm water, I think, because internet trolling, I mean, most important for me. I've got a teenager, so the whole um, you know, the whole bullying thing, and I mean there I wish this was around when I was a kid. I used to get picked on and bullied, you know. So um It's tragic.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

It's tragic. And so, so not to spend too much time on this topic, but we've included resources at streaminglawyer.com. Just type in the word trolls in the search bar. And, you know, unfortunately, it's a tragic conversation because it, you know, some of the cases that we've been involved with, some of the uh blabs I've been involved with have resulted in teenage suicide. And one of the blabs involved three police officers from Southern California talking about a particular case with the mother of the teenager who committed suicide on the blab. And she's now has a foundation and she's dealing with online bully. And so it's a it's a it's a tragic situation. I think we have to have a zero tolerance when it comes to this type of bullshit. And that's why we put this content at the blog. Check it out. If you guys have questions, um just reach out to me or somebody else in your area who you trust who's got some experience with dealing with trolls. But back to the fun stuff. I mean, one of the things I really like, Sebastian, is connecting with people with you like you, being on shows like this, having the support of our amazing community right now, having met half the people that are watching this show in real life, when and I'm going to be meeting a couple, I'll be meeting Johnny uh in San Francisco. I mean, that to me is what's exciting about doing business in today's digital world. And uh one of the takeaways is you you mentioned about how inexpensive it is now to start a business. Okay. And at streaminglawyer.com, the reason I set that up on a free WordPress site, and if you look at my other three or four sites, they're they're not free sites. Um, I'm a year from now, I want to look back and I want to be able to show young lawyers graduating from law school using this platform, this email system, this contact management system, how you can set up a very inexpensive law firm so that they can become entrepreneurs, they can work for themselves, they can call their own shots, they can leave early in the afternoon to coach their son in little league football, they can leave uh late at night and watch their daughter in a dance recital. I'm trying to walk my talk so that a year from now I'll be able to hopefully write a book on how to set up your practice in a in an inexpensive fashion to give young lawyers flexibility to live the kind of life that I think they should be living instead of working in a huge law firm billing 2,200 hours a year. To me, that's not a life.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

I think you should call it lifestyle law.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

Yeah, I'll talk to you about it. We'll come up with something clever. But you know, so I'm trying to walk and talk, and that's why some of the things that I'm doing, there is a long-term play that I want to look back and and and say, listen, here's how you do it, and here's what I did, and you can do it too. So it's exciting. It's a great time to be alive, and it's uh good to be on shows like this. And I really appreciate you reaching out and uh, you know, making this happen.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

This is uh this is great content, and this is stuff that people really need to better understand. I don't think because we work with so many um attorneys and and and lawyers um with our agency here, um they um I probably 90% of those uh attorneys are I just left a big firm, I'm out of my own now. Or what I've seen is the normal processes work in a couple big firms, branch off with another attorney, be a partner, but you know, partners in a business, then that doesn't work out, and then you finally end up fully, completely on your own with your own firm, and they want to establish their own brand. So we focus very clearly on you know, people retain them as an individual. You know, people don't buy what's Simon's uh Simon um, what's his nuts? Uh Simon uh he says that people don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it, right? So um that's why focusing on blog content and video content and how-tos and frequently asked questions and did you knows? And so when people are searching for what you do, they find your content, they don't find your stupid website that you think is the end all end all. Your website is you know the front porch, but your blog and social media and Facebook and everything is your living room where people come in and they have a seat and you offer them a drink and you talk to them and you really, really get to know them. So um the one you've already lived in and created it. So to be able to execute a plan for people to be able to take advantage of it. I think that's that falls under the category of uh winner, winner chicken dinner.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

And I love chicken dinners, so that's how it's big.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

Absolutely. So, does anybody have any questions? We got a couple minutes left here. I know Mitch has to run and um we have a few minutes.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

You know, a couple things you talked about. Yeah, if anybody wants to come in or questions, you know, I'd love to have you guys join us. You know, it's interesting. We you were talking about your lawyer clients and people that you've interacted with. I always talk about young lawyers working in big firms, and I think this would apply to any type of business or industry. You want to brand yourself uh to the point that you're that you can do so without interfering with your professional relationship with the company. And I always tell lawyers look, uh, it let's say you like motocross and you love motocross racing, you love following supercross, outdoor motocross, start a blog as a lawyer writing about motocross, and in each blog post, give it a little legal twist, okay? Whether it's a professional motocross contract that's being uh signed, that's being negotiated, provisions in a contract, liability of motocross tracks, supercross tracks, are they safe tracks for riders to race on? There's some issues with that right now. Just the nuts and bolts behind the scene. Grab your grab your phone and periscope from the next supercross event. Walk through the whoops, which are, you know, six feet high with a rider and they'll walk with you and interview them about why they became a racer and what they looked at when hiring an agent or a lawyer to represent them. In other words, start your own platform with your own unique twist that really has nothing to do with the firm that you're working with. And that gives you the flexibility to start building a foundation, to start expanding your brand so that if at some point in time you want to go out on your own, you have the audience and the support and the tribe to help you do just that. And it's fun to do when you're writing and scoping and recording and podcasting about topics that are of interest to you and they're of interest to people out there watching and listening to you, that's where people start connecting. And then, you know, when we talk about success, I mean, for me, success is flexibility. It's about being it's about being able to jump on a show like this when I want to. It's about leaving at four this afternoon and having uh coffee with a friend of mine in Rotary. We're supposed to have a rotary date, and we're gonna talk and learn more about each other. And I'll I don't have to ask anybody. I'm gonna leave the office early, grab coffee with my friend, and then we'll be able to have our rotary date and share our rotary date with our members tomorrow morning at Rotary. The flexibility for me and the lifestyle is what it's all about. And I think these platforms, the relationships we build, um, allow you to do to do that more easily today than ever before.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

They really have. Well, I just wanted to encourage you to keep rocking and rolling. I am uh I'm stoked and and privileged to to be considered one of your tribe members and and and vice versa. So I'd love to continue the conversation and figure out um what exciting things you have going on and and same thing on this side of the fence. So um cut come back soon to the show, will you?

SPEAKER_00 54:31

Absolutely. Thanks for having me on, Sebastian. I really appreciate it. It was fun.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

Absolutely. It was an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much. Make sure you're following uh Mitch Jackson at Mitch Jackson, just like it sounds. His website is streaminglawyer.com. He also, if you scroll up in the comments, posted that on a how to handle trolls. So be sure to check that out as well. Thanks so much, Mitch.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

All right, thank you guys.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

Bye-bye. Well, that does it for this episode of the social media suck show. I'm your host, Sebastian Rusk, signing off from our studio here in downtown Miami. We'll see you next time. Actually, next time is tomorrow and Thursday. We got three shows this week. It's gonna be crazy. Tomorrow uh at 1 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, the very, very entertaining author speaker, Mr. Joe Comm. Speaking of live streaming, this guy's an animal as well. So you don't want to miss that out, uh, miss that opportunity uh to tune in tomorrow as well. Tell your friends, maybe you'll listen to this podcast later on, a week from now, two weeks from now, six months from now. Hey, either way, thanks for tuning in. Without you guys, the show doesn't happen. Well, it does, but it just gets a little weird. Hey, I'll talk to you guys soon.