How To Tell A Story - Dawn Fraser

This is the Beyond the Story podcast, a show that goes way beyond the story. And now, Sebastian Frost! Dawn Fraser welcome to the show.

Sebastian Rusk

So thrilled to be with you. How are you doing?

Dawn Fraser 

So thrilled to have you here. I'm doing fantastic. It's good to see you again. We have a guest here, I see.

Sebastian Rusk

Bella, the dog decided that she wanted to join the conversation because you know, she's part of everything.

Dawn Fraser 

So I was about to say those, those, those dogs do whatever they want.

Sebastian Rusk

They sure as hell do.

So you and I connected in a, in a random LinkedIn live. Well, not random for you, but it was random for me room that I jumped in a few months back. And we were chatting about public speaking and then podcasting. And you mentioned you work at Stanford and working with a storytelling program and podcasting and the moth. And so we had a lot of common denominators there. And I was curious to learn more about what you're all about, what your story is all about, and what you actually do over at Stanford when it pertains to podcasting. So I'm like, let's Let's get you on the show and, uh, and have a conversation about that and what that looks like. But let's, let's back up a little bit for some context for our listeners and, and help them understand a little bit more about you and your backstory and what really brought you to present day, uh, as I would consider a storytelling professional.

100%. You know, I had no, no clue that some of the things I was studying in college and grad school, uh, actually aligned directly to this whole storytelling world that I would be entering into as an adult. because technically my I studied political science and undergraduate and undergrad at UCLA. And then I went and studied public policy at the Kennedy School at Harvard. And one of the classes I took there was was around public narrative. And this is the time that Senator at the time senator Obama was rising in the ranks and my professor started realizing that he had a way of Sharing a story that connected to a vision In a way that really kind of like brought people together that made them feel the energy of the story Into the movement that they were trying to build to to build him as a candidate And once I graduated, I realized that it was really fascinating to seeing how somebody could shift a story or shift a message to help people better bring them into whatever their cause was, right? So moved down to New York City and came across The Moth. And for those people who might not know about The Moth, it's a storytelling organization where people get up on stages, live telling stories, typically five minutes to maybe max 12 minutes to be going on to like a main stage kind of a show. But the podcast, the storytelling landscape really started to blow up, you know, around the time that I was there on early 2010s. I moved to New York in 2004. And by 2006, That's why I started actually like working with The Moth and The Moth was translating these stories told on stage into a podcast. And so now that podcast downloaded millions upon millions of times globally each year. I host a bunch of different shows for The Moth. I also coach people to tell their stories. So kind of combining my academic nerdiness in terms of public narrative with the fascinating medium of people who are getting on stages to share any kind of story. It didn't matter if you were a person with a dog or an astronaut. Everybody had a story. So combining those two worlds, I realized that part of what I was really good at was actually helping people to articulate their message, to figure out what is that story, to get them on stage. And then in the case of people who wanted to be able to share a little bit more of their vision, their thoughts more broadly, that became a matter of how do I now turn this into a podcast? So I would definitely say that my evolution into podcasting, into storytelling has grown from the years of being in grad school to current day, where now I not only share my own stories on stage and podcasts, but I work with students, for example, at Stanford University. I have my own clients, like the State Department, where they're looking for their alum from a particular program to share better stories for advocacy. So a lot of the work that I do now has these two anchors, which is either sharing my own stories and seeing events and teaching people how to do the same.

So what's the framework when it comes to putting together a story or one telling their actual story? Or if I came to you and said, hey, Dawn, I'm terrified of public speaking, but I really want to try this thing called the moth out. What's, and I had this story, what's the framework do you go off of to utilize?

Yeah, well, one of the, there's a couple of different frameworks, right? But I would say like one of the main frameworks that we look at is what is, what is the essence of the moment? Like what is the moment that's like kind of coming to you, right? And understanding that every story, every podcast, every good novel, every good movie has a structure. And that structure, typically people know it as the beginning, middle and end. but it's more nuanced than that. So if you come to me with a particular moment, chances are that moment is not the beginning, that moment is not the end. So it's a matter for me as the coach or me as the listener to figure out, okay, how is this person actually framing this moment? So if Sebastian comes to me and he's like, everything changed for me that moment that I decided that I was actually going to pick up a mic and start doing this. We want to know what that change is by you showing us what was the before, what was the after. And in its simplest terms, that is the story, putting it together in some type of structure. Now, for more nuanced storytellers, it actually comes down to, okay, what exactly am I sharing in terms of the characters? What am I saying in terms of the way that we're interacting? What lens am I putting on the story? Like, what is the takeaway? And was the takeaway something that I learned? Is the takeaway something that affects my community? Is the takeaway something that affects my worldview? And any one moment in our lives can be looked at in a billion different ways. You know, something that like you got laid off from your job today, if I talk to you about it, could be the worst thing that ever happened in your life. I talked to you about a month from now, you're like, that's the best thing that ever happened because now I'm actually starting my own business, right? So the lens that you're putting on that story could absolutely change. So part of my goal is to figure out what is going to be the most authentic version of you today that shows a change in that story from who you were and who you are now. And what does that, what does it mean for your listeners? Because keep in mind that our stories might be about us, but in my opinion, they're never for us. They're actually for our audience. They are a blessing, they're a gift, so that others can learn from our stories, so people can be inspired. Whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish, that's the purpose and the goal of the story. So I also tried to see, is it serving that purpose? So there's a lot of different things that go into format, the messaging, the framing, and the actual delivery of it that makes a good story.

That makes sense. I know that was kind of a loaded question. So great, great, great answer on that. Which way do I start here? So let's talk about what you do over at Stanford with, with the storytelling and how it kind of transfers over to the podcasting world.

Yeah. So I think that it's been really interesting to see the rise of podcasting in general and for students who are just interested in figuring out how do I take something that could be like a research paper, or how do I take something that I'm interested in, like, you know, working with a current student who, his parents are from Ethiopia, for example, and he is half Ethiopian, half white, and he wants to be able to understand, like, how is his own personal connection to the land going to be shaped by things that are happening there now? So part of my work as a coach is actually listening to, okay, what is the story? What is the narrative version of the story? And how can we actually get the interviews? Who are the people you need to interview? How are you going to be putting this together? So a lot of my work over at Stanford is connecting with those students who know that they have some type of nugget of a story that they want to share. And then all the different aspects of podcasting from the technical side to actually what is the parts of the story that you're putting together to distribution. And so fortunately, over at Stanford, we have a radio station, KZSU, which is Stanford University Radio. as well as different connections with podcast platforms. So a lot of our goal is actually to show how anybody really could take a story and create this, you know, like a piece. You just want to like start off with like creating this one piece about what it means to be Ethiopian American at a time when there's like chaos and strife in the country. And, you know, a lot of the students that we've worked with have gone on to become podcast producers or they've gone on to be able to see how they can translate the WAV files into filmmaking or into like another medium or to tell a better story. So a lot of the work I do for Stanford is either for the students and a little bit of a tangent as well with the work that I do with TEDx Stanford. So I'm the advisor over at TEDx Stanford and any good TED talk is going to have elements of a story. So I work with people as well to tell those stories. Once again, that's on stage more so than the podcast, but it is, uh, it is under the umbrella of what I do and the services that I provide over at Stanford university.

Was there a lot of similarities when you're shaping a TEDx talk versus tech, you're shaping a story for a moth talk or there's a lot of.

crossover there? Absolutely. There's a lot of crossover. Absolutely. And actually I learned this process when I spoke on Ted. So I remember when it was 2012 and I saw a application for Ted that said, we are looking for thought leaders. We're looking for innovators, we're looking for storytellers. I was like, Oh, that's interesting. Storytellers, huh? And so I applied first year. I did not get accepted. You know, I pitched a story that was about a moment that I learned from my twin brother, who has Down syndrome, and the concept of what it meant to win, what it meant to be treated as an equal. What I didn't realize, Sebastian, is that I was pitching a story to Ted. Ted are about ideas that are kind of wrapped in a story, right? So the story is a key component, but the takeaway needs to be in service of the audience. When you're just sharing a story itself, the story could be about you or could be about this crazy moment that happened to you. With TED, it all has to be like, okay, what actionable steps do I want my audience to take as a result of listening to this talk? Right? So it can't just be about the story. And now it needs to be about, like, what are the steps that I need you to think about? And so I reshifted my application where the story was still central, because the story hadn't changed. what changed was the way that I wanted people to think about it and how that could apply to their own lives. And so I would say that now, when I look at people's applications for TED and TEDx, it is a matter of, yes, what is the story? But now, beyond the story, what does this mean in terms of, you know, in terms of a life? If somebody is listening to this on YouTube, what does that mean for them? So absolutely, I look at those components because a good TED Talk without a story is not going to be a good TED Talk. Um, uh, so the story is key, but also the idea behind it and the takeaways are just as essential as part of that process.

Yeah, that resonates with me, especially right now, because I've been a speaker for 15 years, but I haven't really had a speaking business. And I recently joined a program that's helping me build out that speaker business. And wow, I'm learning so much that I did not know that I did not know about the world of speaking. And it like, you know, here we are, finally dawned on me that no one is going to book you to speak, to come teach. how to start a podcast, like just that's not going to happen at Aflac's annual conference. They will book you to help. Cause my talk is normally how to radically change your life and your business by starting a podcast, but they will book you to come talk about how to radically change your life and your business. That's it dropped the podcast. So I'm in the, I'm like, I'm in the throes of creating my signature talk and my expert positioning statement and things that I just were all foreign to me. And how about fabulous? Yeah. Every time I'm working with my coach, she's like, yeah, but what's in it for them? What's the wow moment for them? And then what are the actionable tips that they can go and take, uh, from that? So I, I got it. I finally got it all squared. I finally did the outline for the first talk. I have to come up with three of them. Yay. Um, but, um, but, uh, I've, I've come up with the first framework. Uh, in fact, I have a call. I have my, my call this week with a different coach who specifically focuses on comedy for the time. So I'm like, okay, cool. I've got my serious talk of, you know, in my signature talk in place here, how do we throw some comedy in and get people to laugh in addition to, you know, so I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm discovering what that actually looks like all the time. I mean, it's funny. I host a podcast called beyond the story, but if you asked me how to shape a story, I would be like, um, I got to think about that for a second, but like, there is a totally an art to this whole thing.

There is 100%. That is great.

Yeah. Stay, stay tuned for that. Well, I went to, I went to, um, um, podcast movement in DC a couple weeks ago.

Ah, you did.

super dope conference and uh i've been many times i was like this is how tiny i am but like this i'd been once before and i was like this year i was like every brand and every brand that was doing anything with podcasting was there And sure enough, all I do is walk away with a lead from a speaking company that can help me create an actual speaking business. And then I sign up for them. So, I didn't really get that much on the podcasting education side. It actually cost me money and then some to go. But hey, who knows? I can always... My story one day will be that podcast movement 2024 led to my six-figure speaking business.

Hey, I'd love to touch base with you offline afterwards just to hear how that's going because There are so many podcasters who I think could improve their podcast if they learn the keys and the structure of the stories, if they learn the keys and the structure of a good presentation and a speech, and to know how to pull out that storytelling gold and repurpose it for a podcast or repurpose it for a tweet or whatever. I don't know what they're calling it on X now, but you know what I'm saying? Twitter forever. It is Twitter forever, Twitter, right? I don't know what this expertise is about, but, um, yeah, I think that that's great. So I'd love to hear, uh, and, uh, yeah, you need to tell your audience when you will be putting yourself out there on stage. So I'm sure that people will want to come and check your stuff out too.

Yeah. I mean, I, I, I always have been, but it just hasn't landed, you know, as much as like, there's nothing better than being like, professionally paid speaker. Like I've had, I have a lot of speaker friends, um, that, that are, but it's not something that I've saw. I'm looking forward to seeing how this unfolds, but then you've got like different, so it's like universities, education, you've got conferences, you've got military and you've got corporate military and associations. And I was like, great, where do I fit in? I have no, like, well, you gotta, you gotta blaze your own trail and whatever. specific area that you're, you're going in, but yeah, I, um, talk number one is almost done. Now we're going to add some comedy to it and clean it up and then record it and see how all that goes. But yeah, I'll definitely keep you posted on how that's going. So I'm excited. Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. So what are you excited about as we round out 2024? Isn't that crazy to even say we've got, uh, what, three and a half months left for 2024. That's nuts. What's what's on your agenda. That's exciting.

Well, so the basis of my world are these two pillars, right? So the first pillar is the coaching pillar. And so to round out 2024, one of the big coaching pillars I'll be working on is getting people ready for TEDx Stanford. So a lot of people who are applying to a TEDx typically apply to more than one event, right? But they have People need a roadmap, like where are these events? How do I articulate my message? What are the deadlines? How do I stand out amongst the crowd? So that is a big pillar for the end of 2024 because those applications will be coming out very soon. And we will be selecting our next speakers specifically for TEDx Stanford before the end of this year, before the end of 2024. But knowing that typically TEDx events, the ones that are well-organized, well-structured, have great production quality, they are booking people three to six months out. So wrapping up 2024, for me, we'll be looking at how can I get as many people whose messages have maybe not been out there, or I don't want to say suppressed, because suppressed seems like it's like, you know, a vote. I'm not trying to, you can see what season we're in, right? pre-election season here in the United States, you know.

She's in San Francisco, by the way. No, I'm kidding.

Yeah. I'm one of those Bay Area liberals, you know, who don't come from near my city though, because I'm not trying to eat no dogs. All right. But, um, But yeah, so a big pillar is that was like actually like figuring out how I can serve the most number of people whose voices want to be out there, who should be out there in a very productive way. Right. In addition to that, I have great, great, you know. And of course, I have my private clients that I coach. So last year, it was the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, a bunch of thought leaders who were speaking in Senegal. This year, I'll be going to Istanbul, Turkey with the State Department. So, you know, those are all private clients, but that's stuff that helps to continue to fuel the business, right? So for me, that's all in the coaching arm. In the actual speaking arm of things, I will be hosting a bunch of different events. So the Innocence Network is, they work on behalf of people who have been wrongfully convicted of crimes that they did not commit. They hold major, major conferences and events. And it just so happens that there's two of them happening this fall. One's here in Northern California. Another one is out in Illinois. So I'll be both the emcee for these galas and coaching the exonerees to share their stories to let people know that this is happening and we need to support this amazing, incredible work. And that's just within the next couple of months that we got going on here. So TEDx, Istanbul, um, you know, um, Illinois. So it is, it's about to be a busy season. Yep. And Stanford starts next week.

Love it. Love it. You mentioned, you mentioned the pets. I'm in my weekly networking group last week. I'm in BNI.

Oh yes. I need to ask you about that too.

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I've been in forever. It's the old school way of thinking of people, but I get pissed from it here and there. but we have visitors come and visit. And this guy stands up and he goes, my name is James. I'm a native Haitian. And I'm here to tell everyone we do not eat cats. I thought I was going to fall out of my chair. Oh, he had the whole room rolling. Imagine a visitor walks in strong Haitian accent too. He's like, we do not eat dogs or cats.

And those are the moments, Sebastian, where you just like, you, you have the person's attention automatically because you're connecting to the things that are on our psyche. Things are our mind, things that we've heard or seen. Uh, that's what the great speakers and storytellers, uh, do right away.

They hook you. Oh, he did. And he's, he, him and his wife have a candle business. Everyone was sniffing those candles after the meeting. Yeah. They're over there sniffing them. Where can I buy them? Where can I go? This guy gets it. He totally gets it. 100%. Well, Dawn, I'm so glad we got a chance to connect here. I'll definitely keep you posted on my, uh, my new speaking business that I'm about to do world domination. Well, keep doing work that matters. I love, I love, I love how you're showing up and the work that you do. You're clearly deeply passionate about it and very good at what you do. And I'm stoked to be connected with you and, uh, Anything we can do on our side of the fence here, just let us know. Um, but keep rocking and rolling that storytelling and podcast world.

Absolutely. I mean, if people are interested, you know, if, uh, if this is people's season, is it okay if I pitch a plug? Yeah. I mean, if this is, if this is your season to, to get onto a TEDx stage, or if you're trying to like really figure out this bad boy and to do it in much less time than I did, which was several years to get onto the TED stage. But, uh, you know, check out ignite. That is the information and applications that people know, is this for me? Am I the right person for Dawn's program? I guarantee you, I'm one of the best people in the business. There are some other programs out there that are not going to be as touch, touch based, but, um, I'm very, very hands-on with my people and everything is live. Uh, so if people are interested in that and, uh, let me know, because this is the, this is the time that we're going to be starting promoting and pitching and really getting some people on stage.

So we'll include that link in the show notes at the description of this podcast episode, in case you're wondering what the hell a show note is. Uh, and also a link to connect with Dawn over on LinkedIn, a link for LinkedIn. Yes. Dawn, thanks again for your time.

Thank you, Sebastian. I really appreciate it.

Got it. Until next time, friends. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of the Beyond the Story podcast. Be sure to appreciate it. If you haven't done so already, make sure you're subscribed to the show. This way you'll get updates as new episodes become available. If you feel so inclined, please leave us a review. We sure do appreciate it. Signing off from the podcast, Launchlab.com Studios. We'll talk to you next time.