EP:40 How Outsourcing Can Scale Your Business w/ Jeff J. Hunter Founder of VAStaffer.com

SPEAKER_00 0:40

What is to happen, party people? Hey, welcome back to the show. Always appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to listen to me rap about a couple two tree things. This week, my guest is Jeff J. Hunter. Jeff kind of stumbled upon the world of outsourcing and the world of virtual assistants and how he could literally leverage that for not only his own business, but quickly found that a lot of people would ask him, hey, how do I get a virtual assistant? How do I outsource my business? He continued to get these questions and in turn, over the past three years has been able to build a team of over 50 team members that help outsource not only his needs, but the needs of all of his clients that need uh virtual assistance, outsourcing, etc. So, friends, if you could please put your hands together, give a very warm buzz welcome to Mr. Jeff J. Hunter. Jeff J. Hunter, what's good, my man? I'm so happy to be here, Sad. Great to have you here. We were just discussing how in the heck you and I connected, and it wasn't through digital marketers, traffic, and conversions, although we could have met at a bar or an after party or a reception of some sort uh over various years. Um, I believe we were connected because I had asked a question about the world of outsourcing and virtual assistants, and someone said Jeff J. Hunter is the man. I'd tagged you. We connected. I've been commenting on your stuff, you've been commenting on my stuff, and we finally decided to say, hey, let's have a conversation and get you on the podcast. So uh great to have you here, man.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Yeah, thank you so much. You know, it's so funny because I'm definitely I've definitely shut down a few TNC after parties.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yeah, okay. So that's you know, it could have been that, but though those usually end in some some somewhat of a mild blur. So I I it could potentially be that. However, the the the the after parties I was never a part of unless it was the very last evening, which was a non-sponsored, non non non-affiliated official after party that Dave Albano throws every year. Um that's about the only one I'm there. Otherwise, I've got to curfew by 10 p.m. because the stage doesn't give a shit about my hangover. Amen. So um how'd this all start? Everybody's got a story. You've obviously got one that's led you into um the world of outsourcing. You've got a team of 50 plus of your own that are outsourced. Um let's talk about, let's let's back up. And this hasn't been a long time. You got into this world, what, five years ago? Wow. All right, so we're let's back up. I'll let you talk now.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Well, uh, plain and simple, I really hated doing lots of different things at my job. I was a corporate, you know, I worked at a Fortune 500 uh corporation. I was a project manager. Uh, long story short, I got tired of doing tons of stuff in my job, decided, hey, I wonder if I could hire someone to do this stuff. Found out that I could, uh, started outsourcing portions of my job, became a top five project manager in the company. Then they said, Wow, dude, how are you doing that? And I made the mistake of telling them, and it got written up. So that's pretty much how it worked. Um, but uh, you know, I to be honest with you, I have always worked my entire I would not even not even my adult life, like my my tween life and a beyond. I've always been working on websites and little things on the side, and I've always had a passion for technology. And uh you know, I used to build all these websites and like Dreamweaver, you know, and wow yeah, exactly. I I mean I remember I've probably been through every single like website builder back in the day in the you know 90s and early 2000s. Uh but anyway, when I learned about outsourcing, I was like, oh my gosh, this is awesome! Like I just in my mind there was like this oh type of a moment, like I could do anything that I want because I could hire somebody to help me do this stuff. I'm not I'm not limited anymore by my own like actual time and skill limitations, and thus was created my own kind of on-the-side agency, which I call VA staffer. Um ironically, was the name given to me by somebody who I didn't really literally, somebody's like, Hey, that's really cool what you're doing. Can you like help me get a VA? And I was like, Yeah, I guess I could. I could help you get a VA. And then he was like, Cool, well, I guess you could be like the VA staffer. And I went to GoDaddy, I Googled it, it was available, and I bought it. That's awesome. Um, but that's it. Like, that's literally how all this began was because I had this aha moment that I didn't want to do Gantt charts, mileage reporting, expenses, all this kind of stuff myself. I wanted to focus on the most kind of like you know, high, high-skilled, you know, what is the best use of my time focusing on managing projects, ironically, as a project manager, right? Um and I just got really good at it. And then I kind of realized about six months later that I had uh a very unique skill set that I don't know at that time. I didn't know anyone who was outsourcing. I didn't literally didn't know anyone. And when I was trying to explain to people, it was mind-boggling to them, and I knew I was onto something.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

So you you had your job, you uh you hired um outsourced uh were uh outsourced additional outsourced team members to help you complete projects. Uh the higher-ups uh caught onto it, asking how you were being so uber productive, you were uber honest and told them exactly what happened. They wrote you up, and that was the end of the job, and you continued on. What what was the next step? What did you have these these these out this outsourced team members doing once you left the job? Or were you just solely focused on on staffing VAs for people that needed them?

SPEAKER_03 6:55

Yeah, in the beginning, I was doing the stuff that I could easily quantify and and find and people to do and train easily, which was social media. Social media, like one of the worst things that like literally Americans, not just Americans, I'd say the entire world is bad at social media. Um, now do you know who Kim Garst is? She's actually spoken at a few of the places that you've been. Yes, absolutely. That's my homegirl. Absolutely. I love her. Okay. So Kim Garst always puts out, and I want to do a shout out to Kim Garst. She's awesome. If you guys don't know how to use social media the right way, she's the go-to. Matter of fact, I even use some of her freebie lead magnets as like actual training guides for some of my team. Yes, they're that good. But uh, you know, Kim Garst, um, she she's awesome. She she actually uh wrote the forward for my book that should be coming out this year. I've been putting it off for a year. But um, what's really interesting is that I just figured out a couple different strategies on social media and I trained virtual assistants to do. And you're ready for this. I was on Fiverr when Fiverr was still five dollars. Can you believe it? Sure. Um, I actually didn't, I was selfish, I didn't actually think about doing it as a business. It was kind of a fun hobby for me. It did make me a little bit of money, but it wasn't like you know, I was a six-figure corporate project manager. I didn't need a job, you know, I didn't need to make money. I was doing very well, and this was just really fun for me. And so what ended up happening was I had a couple people on the management side that was basically running my business. I was up to 12 people. I was up to 12 people uh back in 2015. Um in and I actually went all out on it before I had left my work and uh actually uh leased out an office space in the Philippines because I landed a really cool client to help out as a you know two billion dollar company. Next thing you know, um I'm actually doing some really cool stuff with really big people, and my business is running itself. That's what's really cool. I was able to do my project management job, my career, and my other business was basically running itself. I might check in like one or two hours a day just to see how people are doing. Um, and that's that. So I guess you could say the way it kind of transitioned was, you know, I was kind of doing it as a quote unquote side hustle for a couple years, or maybe a year and a half, I guess, before I started realizing, you know what, I could actually make money at this, and I probably more than what I made at my job. And I say probably because I didn't know, you know, I I had no idea. And when I left, my wife told me it was it was time, and you know, they had made my job increasingly harder, and I was mentoring a bunch of people, um, and you know, wasn't getting really rewarded for it. And basically, my wife's like, Man, you're so miserable at your job. Like, don't you want to do what you want to do? And I said, Well, be careful what you wish for. And I had that conversation with my wife. I said, Hey, look, you and I we're probably gonna make some drastic changes. I'm a 30-something year old man with a with a wife and a son, and we're probably gonna have to move in with my my grandparents or something because I don't even know where I'm going next and what we're gonna do. And we packed it up, went and moved my entire family to the Philippines for a month to establish my business, get it set up, hired an outside consultant to come in and help me systematize things, and and actually my biggest thing was I didn't even know like how to really get results like from a business standpoint in the Philippines. There's so many different, you know, the culture is so different. Um, but yeah, I went all in. I literally just threw all my cards out on the table, flew to the Philippines and got established, and here I am. We're half a million dollars now, officially a two-year-old, I guess, company, and it's just growing, basically doubling every year since I left uh since I left my corporate job in 2016.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

So you have a team of virtual assistants that are uh are available for hire for any type of business, small, medium, solopreneur, entrepreneur, etc. And they're available to handle things like social media management, online research, data entry, calendar management, etc.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

Yeah, so we we do. Um, you know, we're starting to move into more um, you know, it seems like most of our clients now we're moving more into content marketing, doing a lot of social media calendars. You know, it's easy for me to sell marketing because it directly affects the bottom line when you get more sales, right? Right. So uh I'd have to say marketing is probably the number one thing that we do.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

And so what type of and what type of marketing stuff um is involved with a virtual assistant? I mean, what could someone expect by hiring?

SPEAKER_03 12:09

Yeah, I mean, setting up like setting up landing pages for offers and lead magnets and you know, connecting it to your like active campaign infusion software, whatever, and you know, and then of course, traffic lead generation, which is like you know, building a network on LinkedIn, um, you know, creating content for social media. You know, I've got so as the king of outsourcing, my nickname, uh, I don't discriminate on talent. So I have American people, I have Philippine people, I've got people in the UK, Australia, wherever. And what my goal is, like, for example, you know, one of my clients, um, he's one of the faces of Entrepreneur magazine, and he's releasing a book um called Breakthrough, and it's a really, really awesome guy. Um, and we're doing you know, three, three to four different posts a day on different Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, um, to promote the book. And you know, it's like so easy to quantify because people come to us and and we take a screenshot of where they're at, and then obviously, you know, we can see drastic changes once we start doing content for them. So I believe that content marketing is the future, and I really believe that you probably know that since you used to work uh MC in some digital marketing stages, you've seen some crazy stuff. But you know, more and more we're seeing the people that are being persistent, the people that are being uh persistent and consistent, and really driving great messages of value to their people. Like those are the ones that are winning, right? Like the people that are very consistent putting out content stories. Look at look at Gary Vaynerchuk, look at Grant Cardone. These guys are like masters of content, they've got so much content all the time, and that's where you win.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Yeah, content's awesome with unlimited funds. It's amazing. It's outside. It's outside. Now, Gary's a good friend of mine. I don't know Grant, um, um, but I know he's you know, he's he's gone all in here, and he just like he constantly says, you know, I'll never be able to spend all this money. So he's just uh the he's just going all in with it. And I again, if you make enough noise uh with content, you know, people are going to listen.

SPEAKER_03 14:27

How and at the same time, I want to I wanna I want to smack you in the face for a second. Is that okay? Yeah, because I don't want your viewership to think that you need a lot of money to do great content, because you don't. No, you don't.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

It's free.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

I I'll give you a hack that I use personally for myself and lots of my clients to create tons of content on a real on a real good budget. One is record a video of yourself, whether you if you really want to get the most out of it, do a Facebook Live. Do a Facebook Live video because first off, Facebook really promotes live video, it's a great format. Um, it pushes it out, it's getting more and more visibility. You do a Facebook Live, right before you do your Facebook Live, you put you know four or five different bullet points of what you're gonna teach people, and you just go out there and you say, Hey, so for example, over the weekend, um I was on a BART ride. I was literally on a train in the Bay Area with one of my clients, and we went live on a train for 18 minutes, and we talked about coaches and the things that you have to think about before you hire a coach, and some things you need to do to qualify to make sure that somebody is worth spending your money on if they're a coach, right? Stuff that I wish I knew before I hired coaches in the past, and her being a coach, I guess she calls herself kind of consultant, not really coach. Coaches kind of have a bad name now. Kinda right? So uh we just did this video. What's cool is I get home and I I tell my one of my VAs, her name's Liz, shout out to Liz. I said, Hey, listen, I just shot an 18-minute video uh on my Facebook. It's called Whatever Coaches, and I said, please, I want you to listen to this, I want you to make some bullet points out of it, um, some some lessons learned, and then I want you to make it into a pretty little guide downloadable sheet too. So now what's happened is not only do you have an awesome blog post, matter of fact, multiple blog posts, 18 minutes guys, that's like four or five blogs. You know, like that's a lot of content. So not only are you gonna have some really great content written up, but you're also going to have a little downloadable guide with here's the talk, here's you know, here's the things that you need to look for before you hire a coach, kind of a checklist. And then like download the checklist now. So, what you've done now is you've turned your video audience, you can download that video, put it on YouTube or whatever. You can download that video, you can put it somewhere, you can put it on a landing page and say, download the checklist of seven things you need to, you know, you need to ask before hiring a coach. And then they click the button, they opted for the thing, they get their one-page checklist, and then you've got them on your list, right? Like that's how you use content. The problem with content nowadays is people aren't using content the right way. Content should be used as value loss leaders. Value loss leaders. It's like putting the milk in the back of the safe way, right? You put the milk in the back of the store because people gotta go in and get milk. That's a desired thing that everybody wants to get. They usually put it as a lost leader. They might have money on the milk.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Yeah, those fuckers do, now that I think about it. Yeah. They do, they do, because they're gonna put you through their little aisle maze to get some milk and buy everything on the way there.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Oh, the whole store's a strategy. I mean, I I there's a whole science behind it. My daughter took a field trip there one time. It's like a 1950s casino. You know, you can't find the exit, you know. Oh, well, if you're if you're doing Vegas right on any given weekend um or during the week, um, that that could be a possibility too. So, so so social media management, landing pages, uh lead generation funnels daily just to do stuff that can be handed off. This is basically what your team is readily available to help out with, correct? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Now, so so I'm I'm why I I was watching a video while while I wasn't watching the video, but I'm scrolling on the uh the virtual assistants at VA staffer page. Yeah, and there's a video on here um from one of your team members of we're tackling the biggest misconceptions in outsourcing. Uh, and we're not actors. So the authenticity of the post is obviously I like this because this dives right in because people's biggest misconceptions. If I say, Jeff, um, what are you doing Tuesday night? I'm having a few people over at my house uh to talk about this new business that I've just got involved with, your brain automatically goes to network marketing MLM, right? Okay. Um I think what happens when we think virtual assistance and outsourcing, we automatically relate back to an experience that we've had or we've been talked to about from a friend or someone close to us that we that we trust. Uh, and that is um there's a language barrier, the time zones suck. Um I want to keep everything um uh you know um um in in the US. Um my uh, you know, the the I think I uh uh outsourcing a VA has never panned out where I've got someone actually thinking for me. How are you guys able, other than content like this, which I think is brilliant? I'm sure you did a lot with this video uh as well, just like you said, you can turn that into a guide, top five reasons you don't need to believe what you've heard about outsourcing, right? But how how are you able to combat this in addition to content? Because I would be my number one thing too. I've hired people overseas constantly, and I use people constantly uh for web design in India and the times and it's the it's the time difference and the language barrier that are always the deal breakers. You know what?

SPEAKER_03 20:08

The biggest and best way to combat it for me has been to just show my team, you know, like it we're not the type of I I wanted to do things different, you know. If you go to these other outsourcing companies, what you're gonna see is your stereotypical like stock photo of some like Eastern European person wearing a pantsuit and a little you know headset, something in her perfectly placed hair. And we're ready to answer your call, and it might as well have like a little effect with smile where it's like yeah, yeah, yeah. And and and what I like to do is I like to show my team, you know, and I I like to show them off because A, they're friggin' awesome, and I recruit the best, you know, like the like the video that you were just talking about.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

A couple hotties in here. I know you're a merry guy, but I'm I'm not I'm gonna have to go to the Philippines with you next time.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

The average age in the Philippines is you know, young, you know. I think 20s, you know, I think most I think the average age is like 23 or something in the Philippines, but um might be a little young, but we can work it out, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Outsourcing the wifey, yeah.

unknown 21:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

But when my I outsourced my my need for a wife.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

When my wife and when we took my wife and son over there, uh it was it was hilarious because every day's an adventure, you know, like the even the things that Americans take advantage of, like, or they don't even take take for granted, I should say, is like everyone in America has a car, right? And or everyone in America at least knows somebody who has a car. Um, and in the Philippines, you know, most people don't have cars. They just take they take these type of buses, they're called jeepneys, and or they take a tricycle, like a trike, a little motorized bike with a car. Hard on side. And, you know, even Uber, you know, Uber's not there anymore. It's it's another ride share type thing and it sucks. But, you know, you know, going back to what you said, you know, the misconceptions in outsourcing is like Rain, who is the person who is in that video you were looking at. It says where we're tackling one of the biggest misconceptions in outsourcing. Like she was the very first virtual assistant to work at Shopify. It was their very first outsourced person. She grew their outsourced uh Shopify support from her to 200 before she got recruited to work for Google as a project coordinator. Um, and then you know, she worked at Google for a while working on some different technologies for them. Google Suite, she was a support for Google Suite, but she's just an incredible person, and she's just one, just one story of the people that I have. You know, people that are they're they're just not run-of-the-mill, you know, right off the street people. These are these are people that you know have already worked for Americans, you know. These are people that that are really excited and they want to do bigger things, and they love working on an international level. Like that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for talent that really wants to uh really wants to shine and be a part of an international agency. They most of them Filipinos they love American culture as it is. You know, I love the I love the Filipino culture. My wife and I love it. The the chicken adobo is is to die for. It's really great, it tastes amazing. Uh it's like kind of a barbecue type chicken. Um, but anyway, it's just I just feel like there's a really good blend between the American and the Filipino uh culture. Um, and that's a that's a really big part of why I do all my, well not all, but most of my outsourcing there is just because you know they speak really great English, they have very similar cultural values, you know, it's a majority, you know, Catholic Christian community. It just it just works really well. There's a just a lot of alignment with America.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Nice. Yeah, no, I dig it. I we definitely, I mean, I've like I said, I I um I use freelancers for all my graphic design, for all of our podcast editing um for our for our uh for our clients, um, and then obviously day-to-day stuff and lead gen stuff, SEO stuff I've done in the past too. I've just been completely dissatisfied with all of it. And when we're dissatisfied with something and we don't know about a better solution, well, we just give up on it and shelf it until something you know shows up. So yeah, you and I are definitely gonna do some business together for sure. So um, so so so you're solely focused on um you have a staff and you and then your staff is what handles your VA clients, correct?

SPEAKER_03 24:45

Yeah, so I have something a little bit different than probably most outsourcing companies because usually when you work with a VA company, they'll like pair you up with like your soulmate VA, or that's what they say, you know. Um, you know, like you'll get a VA, like one person. So the way that so the way that VA staffer works is that we have basically a team, you know, 50 plus VAs, and we have a project management team. Okay, I call them the project success team. And the project success team, these are the ones that, you know, they know American marketing, they know the the needs of businesses, and they actually work with my clients to strategize what they need to get done, and then they actually work with the other team members to delegate that out. Um so it's a really cool, unique, uh, unique thing. It's it's a little bit different. We have basically built-in project management. So when you come into us, you know, we have some active collab software and other things like that, and they do kickoff calls, and my team's available. We have a project calendar that all of our clients can use and basically get on get on a calendar during US hours. Isn't that novel during US hours to actually work on projects and come up with you know what they're trying to accomplish uh during the US hours? So it's pretty cool. I've got seven people that work during the US, it's growing. Um, and then those seven people work with the other you know, 40 or so that uh that rock and roll during the Philippine hours.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Let's talk about lead generation uh for a second here. I I saw that on the site too. Um, how does that work with a with a VA?

SPEAKER_03 26:21

Man, lead generation is such a broad term, but um, you know, data collection, you know, that that's that's the new agriculture. You know, you you think about in the 1970s, 1960s, um, you know, it was all about agriculture at the time. Well, we're cultivating, but it's cultivating data. Right now, data is is the new agriculture. So um, you know, we do a lot of uh prospecting for our clients, uh, a lot of it on LinkedIn where we'll go ahead and you know connect to people, send them messages, um, we'll scrape data, grab their you know, email addresses and names, put them into CRMs, you know, like uh your email management systems and um all sorts of stuff. But you know, really the truth is with lead generation, there's just so many different ways to get clients. And you know, I guess I have the opposite problem as most as my clients. Uh I have no shortage of leads. Um but you know, I know that that's still one of the biggest problems that people have right now is just getting new clients. So we've moved into doing some SEO as well. You know, SEO, um, even though I've been doing that forever obsessively, I've only really done it for myself and a few select clients because it's like science, you know, it's it's a lot of work for my brain. Um so yeah, I mean, when it comes to lead generation, you know, finding new clients, that's bottom bottom line. That's what you can use a VA to do. If all you did was had a VA and they just hand delivered you new prospects all day, you know, which I do have, you know, some of my clients, that's all they have my team do. Um, it's super valuable.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Yeah, I know that's I have an immediate need for that. So yeah, that gets me really excited. Yes, absolutely. I mean, if you and if you don't, then obviously you've arrived and you've made it. You've already if you yeah, you're you you've I yeah, you had I ask myself that daily. I consider like taking the afternoon off and I look at myself in the mirror and I go, have you arrived? I mean, have you made it is the question. And if that answer is no, it's like, let's go back to that old, you know. We used to have a old uh back in the sales world when I had a job like 15 years ago, it was called five at five. That was five phone calls at 5 p.m. before you leave. Um, and you do that every day at the end of the week, you make 20 phone calls, and out of that, there's probably a deal or two. Um so um, yeah, back to the basics. I always tell myself, as an entrepreneur, I think a lot of entrepreneurs uh overlook this. And it, you know, sales is in my blood, it's how I got my start. It's all I did. I didn't go to school, I just sold my way into entrepreneurship. Yay, lucky me. Um, but but the basics of sales, um, I always told myself for the past eight years I've had my company. If I treated my company like I treated a sales job where the pressure was constantly on to stay on top, to win a bonus, to not get fired, to get the best leads, special treatment. Like if I if I treated my business with all of that, but the pressure's not on, because you've got that flexibility is an entrepreneurship.

SPEAKER_03 29:16

So that's that's why I have this on my desk. And I don't know. Hopefully you can hear this.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Love it. Yes, absolutely. Well, with that with that being said, we'll we'll leave things on a good note right there. Recast reserve. I remember used to I used to have that as a um when I got every time I got a new email when I used that thing called uh what was it called? Outlook. Yeah, outlook. Oh and uh yeah, every time an email would come in, I'm like ching. I'm like, that's a deal. So, well, Jeff, man, it's it's great to finally connect with you. Thanks for carving out some time uh today to to come on the show and chat about the wonderful world of outsourcing. I learned a lot. I took a whole page of notes here, and my mind's just spinning here on some stuff. I'm I'm pretty confident you and I can make some moves together.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

Heck yeah. I love working with people. You know what? That's the one thing, if I had to say, what my superpower is. It's just been a way, it's just been really good at, you know, finding win-wins. And you know, I think that's why outsourcing works so well, because we win here. You know, we're obviously getting a great amount of work done that either we don't want to do or don't have time to do. You know, other people are winning because they're they're able to work at home in their pajamas instead of have to commute to work every day, and they can make more money. And of course, my clients win because I get to provide awesome value to them and they don't have to worry about managing and babysitting a team. So win-win-win, baby.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Yeah, who doesn't love that? Hey guys, check them out. Vastaffer.com. More information on getting a virtual assistant and outsourcing some of the bullshit you do not want to deal with. I forgot who said it a long time ago, but if you hate doing something, but it must be done, find someone who loves doing it and get them on your team. That's what Jeff and his team at VAStaffer.com can provide for you. Check Jeff out too. Um, his website is jefjhunter.com. I always say JJ Hunter. It's like this show from the 80s, you know, like the real like uh yeah, the guy with the car kit. What was Night Rider? Yeah, it's like Night Rider. And then right after Knight Rider at 9 p.m. Tuesday night is JJ Hunter and his virtual assistants. Yeah, so so I'm the Night Rider. Yeah, absolutely. Well, hey, thanks again, man. And uh everybody uh tuning in here, make sure you check out bxtapper.com, connect with him online, explore opportunities, check out Jeff and follow him too. And hey Jeff, come back soon to the show, will you? Thank you, brother. All right, man. Thank you. Hey, friends, Sebastian again here. Thanks so much for tuning into this week's episode. I really hope you're leaving this episode with knowing just one or two more things about the world of outsourcing that you didn't currently know. If you haven't done so already, make your way over to the iTunes Store. Make sure that you're getting notifications by subscribing. Doesn't cost you anything subscribing to our podcast. That way you'll get a notification for every new episode that drops off. All of Jeff's information will be in the show notes. Visit them over at vastaffer.com. We'll talk to you next time.